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From Charlie Christian to post war P90 info?

Tom Wittrock

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Early 40s, Gibson made. The crinkle finish has actually disguised the FON [serial number], but I'm edging in on it. :)
 

sonar

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3 years and some change has gone by with not much more to tell, except that the wiring harness on 50's Harmony's and 50's Gibson appear to be identical.

Any other info on early Gibson pickups?
 

mistersnappy

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Jan 20, 2006
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The Gibson Lap Steel book has some info on pickups from that time period, as well.
 

mad dog

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Jun 6, 2006
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I have a Silvertone 1427 archtop with the P13s. Black and white, from the mid-50s. Looks like the Harmony Espanada, but is a bit shallower in body depth.

My luthier buddy restored it. He worked on many comparable Harmonys and Silvertones for the west coast players. Had specialized in these old models. I'm remembering that he described the P13s as a successful design venture from Gibson, ultimately defeated by cost. They did go into production, got a decent run of them made, then rethought the cost. Just too expensive to produce. Different profile for bridge and neck ... needing custom surrounds ... too intricate, and too many parts. (This according to my buddy.) Some P13s did get used in Gibson products, not many. They held off on the rollout, went back to the drawing board.

Tasked Seth Lover with coming up with a simpler, more affordable alternative. He came back with the P90. And no more P13s were built. Gibson's stock in that pickup got sold off, and P90s were an instant hit. Until Seth's next innovation ...
 

sonar

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The Gibson Lap Steel book has some info on pickups from that time period, as well.

Thanks Snappy.

I hope somebody that has the lap steel book will add to the conversation.



I have a Silvertone 1427 archtop with the P13s. Black and white, from the mid-50s. Looks like the Harmony Espanada, but is a bit shallower in body depth.

My luthier buddy restored it. He worked on many comparable Harmonys and Silvertones for the west coast players. Had specialized in these old models. I'm remembering that he described the P13s as a successful design venture from Gibson, ultimately defeated by cost. They did go into production, got a decent run of them made, then rethought the cost. Just too expensive to produce. Different profile for bridge and neck ... needing custom surrounds ... too intricate, and too many parts. (This according to my buddy.) Some P13s did get used in Gibson products, not many. They held off on the rollout, went back to the drawing board.

Tasked Seth Lover with coming up with a simpler, more affordable alternative. He came back with the P90. And no more P13s were built. Gibson's stock in that pickup got sold off, and P90s were an instant hit. Until Seth's next innovation ...


Cool guitar mad dog. I've got a '54 H-62 with P13's.

While I really dig on the P13 the P90 is overall a more versatile pickup imo. I've found the P13 to be kind of picky with amps, while most old P90's tend to sound great with almost any amp out there.

I'm not convinced of Gibson selling off all the P13 stock in one shot. Harmony used these pickups from '47 to at least '64. 17 years for the largest guitar manufacturer (at the time) doesn't add up in my book. Again I could be way off, but I haven't found any evidence to support a one time purchase. Then again, I haven't found any hard evidence that supports a subcontracting agreement between the two companies.
 

mad dog

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While I really dig on the P13 the P90 is overall a more versatile pickup imo. I've found the P13 to be kind of picky with amps, while most old P90's tend to sound great with almost any amp out there.

I'm not convinced of Gibson selling off all the P13 stock in one shot. Harmony used these pickups from '47 to at least '64. 17 years for the largest guitar manufacturer (at the time) doesn't add up in my book. Again I could be way off, but I haven't found any evidence to support a one time purchase. Then again, I haven't found any hard evidence that supports a subcontracting agreement between the two companies.

That H62 Harmony is a cool one too. I agree with your take on the P13. The sound tends to be very dark at lower volumes, then wild as you turn up volume. A bit hard to control. And they don't agree with every amp. The other P90-like pickup that's a bit amp picky is the Guild Franz. I have a '61 Guild X50 archtop with that p/u. It's a really interesting sound. Almost, not quite P90.

Regular P90s are more likely to work well with all sorts of different amps. They're all cool as hell, like a tonal food group with different flavors. BTW: the out of phase sounds with P13s are (at least to me) quite different than what I hear from OOP with P90s. Could be just the guitar ... my luthier put a little phase switch inside the lower f hole on the Silvertone. The OOP tones are really spacious, resonant, not scooped out anywhere near as much as I hear with P90s out of phase.
 

sonar

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Could be just the guitar ... my luthier put a little phase switch inside the lower f hole on the Silvertone. The OOP tones are really spacious, resonant, not scooped out anywhere near as much as I hear with P90s out of phase.

Agreed. The out of phase with P13's (a previous owner installed a push/pull pot on one of the tone controls) sounds really good, although I'm not so sure it's an exact replication of the T-Bone Walker tone a lot of the current Jump players believe it to achieve. The volume drop is pretty noticeable on mine unless the amp is cooking.
 

HarmonIser

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Oct 14, 2019
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3 years and some change has gone by with not much more to tell, except that the wiring harness on 50's Harmony's and 50's Gibson appear to be identical.

Any other info on early Gibson pickups?

It seems there's still not much new info been uncovered...

I wonder if you'd happen to know the specs of the P13 harnesses? I have a Silvertone 1385 which has some issues, and wonder what I may need to order, if replacement is required. It's a hell of a job extracting and replacing these shielded cable networks!!
 

HarmonIser

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Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
4
I have a Silvertone 1427 archtop with the P13s. Black and white, from the mid-50s. Looks like the Harmony Espanada, but is a bit shallower in body depth.

My luthier buddy restored it. He worked on many comparable Harmonys and Silvertones for the west coast players. Had specialized in these old models. I'm remembering that he described the P13s as a successful design venture from Gibson, ultimately defeated by cost. They did go into production, got a decent run of them made, then rethought the cost. Just too expensive to produce. Different profile for bridge and neck ... needing custom surrounds ... too intricate, and too many parts. (This according to my buddy.) Some P13s did get used in Gibson products, not many. They held off on the rollout, went back to the drawing board.

Tasked Seth Lover with coming up with a simpler, more affordable alternative. He came back with the P90. And no more P13s were built. Gibson's stock in that pickup got sold off, and P90s were an instant hit. Until Seth's next innovation ...



I can see the possibility of Gibson making a bunch of the P13s, and going "yea/nah, too expensive to produce", but I'd guess that the specifics of whatever deal done with Harmony was probably meant to be kept under wraps for a reason...
Maybe they sold all stock, and tooling equipment was part of the deal also. No-one seems to know whether Gibson continued to make them for Harmony, or not... Maybe they were paid to forget!

FYI, the Silvertone 1427 was available 1959-1961. Earlier models were 1385 ('57-'59) and 1384 ('55-'57). Some of the 1384s had harmometal binding same as the Espanada.
 

HarmonIser

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Agreed. The out of phase with P13's (a previous owner installed a push/pull pot on one of the tone controls) sounds really good, although I'm not so sure it's an exact replication of the T-Bone Walker tone a lot of the current Jump players believe it to achieve. The volume drop is pretty noticeable on mine unless the amp is cooking.


Big call to expect the exact same OOP tone from two P13s, as from 3 P90s, but anyway...

Do you still use both pups together in phase? I'm considering flipping the magnets on the neck pup on mine, and figure it's something I'd be confident enough too myself, as opposed to try and re-wire those tine little fragile wires coming off the coil to enable a push/pull, or toggle.
I'm raising a sweat just thinking about it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkzjQiQCAqU&t=143s
Is this like your OOP tone? From what I can see Vince Lee do here, (and I've seen others do it too), lowering your volume just a little one one pup, can bring your overall volume back up somewhat, as it reduces the phase cancellation between the two pups, and thus you have less signal loss. The object is to get the sweet spot, as discussed here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWndWYmYk10 ) by Kid Andersen playing ThroBak Peter Green model pups, but the concept is the same.
 

sonar

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It seems there's still not much new info been uncovered...

I wonder if you'd happen to know the specs of the P13 harnesses? I have a Silvertone 1385 which has some issues, and wonder what I may need to order, if replacement is required. It's a hell of a job extracting and replacing these shielded cable networks!!


Gibson folks (and some money grabbing nerdowells) have been ripping out these harnesses and putting them in Gibson guitars or selling them for big bucks. I'd use an ES-175 harness spec as a baseline.

If at all possible restore, restore, restore. My biggest worry would be dealing with 60-70 year old plastic surrounds that can easily crack and crumble.

(For anyone who wants to demystify working on a hollowbody, TV Jones has youtube videos about swapping out pickups and wiring for Gretsch guitars, but the same ideas can be used for Gibson, Silvertone, etc.)



I can see the possibility of Gibson making a bunch of the P13s, and going "yea/nah, too expensive to produce", but I'd guess that the specifics of whatever deal done with Harmony was probably meant to be kept under wraps for a reason...
Maybe they sold all stock, and tooling equipment was part of the deal also. No-one seems to know whether Gibson continued to make them for Harmony, or not... Maybe they were paid to forget!

FYI, the Silvertone 1427 was available 1959-1961. Earlier models were 1385 ('57-'59) and 1384 ('55-'57). Some of the 1384s had harmometal binding same as the Espanada.


As far as I've been able to gather Harmony never made pickups.

Anything is possible, although the exactness of 50's Gibson harnesses compared to what was installed in the Harmony Hollows of the same era would lean toward the sub-contracting theory. Unfortunately, there'll be less and less eyewitness accounts as the years go by. Reverb posted a brief article about the Chicago Harmony factory a few years back. I contacted the author, but he seemed to know about as much as anyone else on the old Harmony forum, which isn't a lot when it comes to the P13.



Big call to expect the exact same OOP tone from two P13s, as from 3 P90s, but anyway...

Do you still use both pups together in phase? I'm considering flipping the magnets on the neck pup on mine, and figure it's something I'd be confident enough too myself, as opposed to try and re-wire those tine little fragile wires coming off the coil to enable a push/pull, or toggle.
I'm raising a sweat just thinking about it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkzjQiQCAqU&t=143s
Is this like your OOP tone? From what I can see Vince Lee do here, (and I've seen others do it too), lowering your volume just a little one one pup, can bring your overall volume back up somewhat, as it reduces the phase cancellation between the two pups, and thus you have less signal loss. The object is to get the sweet spot, as discussed here ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWndWYmYk10 ) by Kid Andersen playing ThroBak Peter Green model pups, but the concept is the same.


P13 guys love to use T-Bone as an example of the mod and it does have the flavor, if not the exact tone. It's an easily identifiable reference, so I went with it.

I use the guitar in phase about 90% of the time. I don't gig my H62 and it's not often that I play it with a really cooking amp. Personally, I'd go for a push-pull pot on a tone control over flipping. There are some pretty cool middle position tones you'd lose flipping a magnet.

I enjoyed the first video. Thanks. Yes, that's it (more or less) depending on how your pickups have "matured" over the years, what amp you're using and setup. My guitar is setup with flats and doesn't get as "vowelly" on the lower strings. I also don't play with as much gain which accentuates the OOP tone, as P13's ride that thin line between grit and buzz.

Fwiw, I'm a big fan of the neck pickup paired with an old octal Valco amp (or a solid state Vox Pathfinder 15). Check out Kid Ramos on youtube for what I love about the old hollow Harmony guitars with P13's.
 
Last edited:

HarmonIser

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Oct 14, 2019
Messages
4
Gibson folks (and some money grabbing nerdowells) have been ripping out these harnesses and putting them in Gibson guitars or selling them for big bucks. I'd use an ES-175 harness spec as a baseline.

If at all possible restore, restore, restore. My biggest worry would be dealing with 60-70 year old plastic surrounds that can easily crack and crumble.

(For anyone who wants to demystify working on a hollowbody, TV Jones has youtube videos about swapping out pickups and wiring for Gretsch guitars, but the same ideas can be used for Gibson, Silvertone, etc.)


Firstly, thanks heaps for replying fully, so promptly...
So I've tried cleaning the pots by spraying (in Australia it's called Servisol, but I believe it to be same as deoxit) electrical clean and lube, and working the controls. I believe it's now better, but what's next, when it's still not noise free? Do I remove them completely, and soak them in the stuff?



As far as I've been able to gather Harmony never made pickups.

Anything is possible, although the exactness of 50's Gibson harnesses compared to what was installed in the Harmony Hollows of the same era would lean toward the sub-contracting theory. Unfortunately, there'll be less and less eyewitness accounts as the years go by. Reverb posted a brief article about the Chicago Harmony factory a few years back. I contacted the author, but he seemed to know about as much as anyone else on the old Harmony forum, which isn't a lot when it comes to the P13.

Indeed, the interwebs are full of "eggsperts!!" Sadly, the true info on how and why will most likely never be revealed...




P13 guys love to use T-Bone as an example of the mod and it does have the flavor, if not the exact tone. It's an easily identifiable reference, so I went with it.

I agree, it is most identifiable, but I think it's complicated by the third pup being present. Don't think I was having a go at you - I see why you used ran with the example...

I use the guitar in phase about 90% of the time. I don't gig my H62 and it's not often that I play it with a really cooking amp. Personally, I'd go for a push-pull pot on a tone control over flipping. There are some pretty cool middle position tones you'd lose flipping a magnet.

I have a cheapy made in China ES295 knockoff with dogear P90s, which I flipped the neck magnets on, and I really dig it. I never really used middle position in phase, usually preferriing neck, and some soloing time on the bridge. So I'll have to seriously consider the Silvertone situation - I feel I'd be much the same, and not use middle that much if it dodn't have that honk. I guess I need to spend more time trying to find middle in phase goodness before deciding...

I enjoyed the first video. Thanks. Yes, that's it (more or less) depending on how your pickups have "matured" over the years, what amp you're using and setup. My guitar is setup with flats and doesn't get as "vowelly" on the lower strings. I also don't play with as much gain which accentuates the OOP tone, as P13's ride that thin line between grit and buzz.

Fwiw, I'm a big fan of the neck pickup paired with an old octal Valco amp (or a solid state Vox Pathfinder 15). Check out Kid Ramos on youtube for what I love about the old hollow Harmony guitars with P13's.

I've check quite a few Kid Ramos vids, and noted his Vox use - are they all Pathfinder 15? I thought he would have valve amps for recordings at least - I understand reliable solid state for live situations, though!
I mainly use mine through a 5watt Epiphone Valve Junior up around half-way to two thirds, and roll back guitar volume to clean it up as required.
I don't notice Kid chasing OOP that much, mainly neck pickup hollowness. The more time I spend with it, the more I realise a lot of the tone is in your technique. Maybe I should try a Pathfinder out too - they are cheap!
I also have a 1960 Harmony H306 amp, (I think around 12-14watts, 6V6 tubes), which, even when cranked, is still quite clean when it comes to "grit", compared to the epiphone. I love having the grit, and being able to roll it back for rhythm.
I'm not sure, but I think mine has semi-flats, which were on it when I got it. I guess it's past time to try different strings - flats next!
 

sonar

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I've check quite a few Kid Ramos vids, and noted his Vox use - are they all Pathfinder 15? I thought he would have valve amps for recordings at least - I understand reliable solid state for live situations, though!
I mainly use mine through a 5watt Epiphone Valve Junior up around half-way to two thirds, and roll back guitar volume to clean it up as required.
I don't notice Kid chasing OOP that much, mainly neck pickup hollowness. The more time I spend with it, the more I realise a lot of the tone is in your technique. Maybe I should try a Pathfinder out too - they are cheap!
I also have a 1960 Harmony H306 amp, (I think around 12-14watts, 6V6 tubes), which, even when cranked, is still quite clean when it comes to "grit", compared to the epiphone. I love having the grit, and being able to roll it back for rhythm.
I'm not sure, but I think mine has semi-flats, which were on it when I got it. I guess it's past time to try different strings - flats next!

Most of the vids I've seen (usually with Tommy Harkenrider) has him with the Pathfinder or two. Sometimes with what appears to be a Fender reverb. Bigger shows I've seen him with a Tele and AC30.

The Vox Pathfinder is one of my favorite all time SS amps. Even new they were cheap amps and sounded way better than they needed to be. Unlike the traditional Vox tone these asian amps are dark and smokey. Overdrive isn't great, but that's not what these excell at.
 
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