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  1. #81
    Les Paul Forum Member tangerine's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by Junae9 View Post
    Good morning everyone.


    I would like to ask two questions to you :

    1.) you think next year the historic line will be produced as before (before the true historic)?
    2.) True Historic prices will be kept in line in 2016 (even producing Historics not true)?


    Thank you.
    I noticed that Gibson have been saying this in their blurb recently;

    "Remember a True Historic the guitar must have the 5 digit period correct serial number and a COA that says "True Historic". Guitars sent out of the country with serial numbers that start with HS are Historic Select guitars. While they do share the same specs and plastic parts they are not part of the True Historic Series."

    So TH are limited as promised and distinguish themselves from HS via the serial number, HS could be unlimited, and have the exact same specs as TH? CS have different specs. Maybe this is a backtrack after all, I haven't been following really as I'm not buying anything Gibson anytime soon

    Why is this font appearing like this?

  2. #82
    Les Paul Forum Member DanD's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by tangerine View Post
    I noticed that Gibson have been saying this in their blurb recently;

    "...

    So TH are limited as promised and distinguish themselves from HS via the serial number, HS could be unlimited, and have the exact same specs as TH? CS have different specs. Maybe this is a backtrack after all, ...
    I'd venture a guess that the HS model line was planned out well in advance. When I read Gibson was limiting production to 200 1960 THRs for worldwide distribution I knew they had to have something else up their sleeve other than the short tenon CS model line.

    Too many dealers place special run orders like the Featherweight series from Wildwood. I knew they weren't going to downgrade these runs to the CS model specs.

    However, I'd have thought Gibson would have continued to use 2014 spec on these special dealer runs as they made such a big deal of touting the limited availability of the THR spec guitars.

    Take any claim from Gibson of 'limited' with a grain of salt. If it sells they'll find I way to meet the demand. The consumers promise of a 'limited edition' is limited to serial number font in this situation. Other differences I've seen used to make new models from a limited run include body color and fretboard wood.

    The only limit from Gibson is how many they can sell!
    "In Heaven all the interesting people are missing."

  3. #83
    Les Paul Forum Member emg32's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Production for 2015 does not seem anymore limited than previous years from what I am seeing. They are every where now. Every dealer has them and they are not hard to find. This is after only a few months of production with over 5 months left in this year. You have the TH's, the aged TH's, Nicky's, Ace Frehley's, Donna's coming, etc...

    Gibson may shuffle the serial numbers to make them look more limited but in reality it seems nothing out of the norm. Don't see 2016 being anything but a continuation. Gibson isn't going to put money into a hand sanding line, different plastics, etc.. just to revert back to the 2014 Historic style next year. They have always loved using the "Limited" term to boost sales and price upcharges. The 2015 TH's, CC's, Artist runs, etc... will just continue on until the next minor changes and price increases.

  4. #84
    Les Paul Forum Member demundo's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    I agree with the guy who said he would wait for the truly, truly historic. besides I have had one of my historics with a neck reset, and other corrections, ending up far below the price point of the true historic. Gibson has cried wolf too mant times for me to care anymore.
    Last edited by demundo; 07-27-15 at 10:57 PM.
    Albert Einstein called compound interest "the greatest mathematical discovery of all time".

  5. #85
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    I bought my Les Pauls because I play Les Pauls. I have always been picky about guitars and tried to get only ones that spoke to me. I have excellent playing and sounding Les Paul's from USA Studios to 2013 R9 and R8. I bought every one of them because they seemed to be excellent in every way that mattered. To me, might not be so cool for someone else.

    I never was one to bitch and complain about plastic, hues or hidden mold marks, I did change knobs to cheap Allparts that looked right to me and I kept the stock tuners. That is me, I have read hundreds of posts about how Gibson don't do the plastic right, the nut, the color, the rings and pocket chip, the keys the toggle switch the covers the buttons, on and on. Not my concern, but it sure seems like it was for a lot of others. Nothing in the new TH series makes me feel any less enthused about my older R series, just like my newer 2013's do not diminish my older 99 and 2000.

    I'd buy a new THR9 if I had that kinda money. If my income allowed I'd be awash in a sea of gear. I just cannot afford it. Just like I couldn't afford to have a Makeover and buy all the extra "Vintage Correct Plastics and components". I figured it out and the TH is cheaper than doing that and the Les Paul stays stock.

    What I don't get is why some are so worked up about it? There are plenty of pristine used R series Les Pauls on the market at fair prices. The new CS9's that I tried were really nice. We got what we were clamoring for, didn't we?

    These things have a way of settling over time. I think we just have to ride it out. Is finding good used or NOS R series guitars not good enough? If I were in the market it would satisfy me.
    Last edited by Big Al; 07-26-15 at 07:08 AM.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  6. #86
    Les Paul Forum Member slammintone's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by rockabilly69 View Post
    Funny, my 2014 R7 smokes my old 2007 R7. Not even close!!! Better neck finish work, better neck shape, better finish overall, tighter hardware, and WAY better tone!
    My 2014 R8 smokes the 2007 R9 I had in every way imaginable. Just as you said, it's not even close. But I'm sure there was some much better R9s from 2007 than the one or two I've had.

  7. #87

    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by tangerine View Post
    I noticed that Gibson have been saying this in their blurb recently;

    "Remember a True Historic the guitar must have the 5 digit period correct serial number and a COA that says "True Historic". Guitars sent out of the country with serial numbers that start with HS are Historic Select guitars. While they do share the same specs and plastic parts they are not part of the True Historic Series."

    So TH are limited as promised and distinguish themselves from HS via the serial number, HS could be unlimited, and have the exact same specs as TH? CS have different specs. Maybe this is a backtrack after all, I haven't been following really as I'm not buying anything Gibson anytime soon

    Why is this font appearing like this?
    True Historic production is in no way limited. To produce the exact same guitar and call it something different just because the serial number is different is absurd. They are the same thing. There was speculation a while back that Gibson was doing this in part because the used market was flooded and prices of used Reissues was dropping, which I would presume would hurt the demand for new sales. Well, it seems like prices of used Reissues have continued to drop. I expect this may continue, as Gibson keeps pumping out more and more guitars with essentially the same specs (save for new color plastics and other minor differences). It is a good time to buy a used Reissue! It will be interesting to see what the prices are on the used True Historics, CCs and Artist Signature models in 2-3 years. Of course, by then Gibson will come out with other series they claim to be even more correct!

  8. #88
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    What's a HS? other than what's written above.
    Any pics anywhere?

  9. #89
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by GotTheSilver View Post
    True Historic production is in no way limited. To produce the exact same guitar and call it something different just because the serial number is different is absurd. They are the same thing. There was speculation a while back that Gibson was doing this in part because the used market was flooded and prices of used Reissues was dropping, which I would presume would hurt the demand for new sales. Well, it seems like prices of used Reissues have continued to drop. I expect this may continue, as Gibson keeps pumping out more and more guitars with essentially the same specs (save for new color plastics and other minor differences). It is a good time to buy a used Reissue! It will be interesting to see what the prices are on the used True Historics, CCs and Artist Signature models in 2-3 years. Of course, by then Gibson will come out with other series they claim to be even more correct!
    You are wrong about that. Dealers will tell you that they have customers that will only buy a 58,59, or 60 reissue with a vintage correct 5 digit serial number for example 9 5001. Dealers will also tell you that some of their customers wont even buy a reissue late in the year when Gibson uses a 6 digit serial number. That is the reason the True Historic's are limited. If you want a guitar with a historic serial number and all the upgraded plastics than this is what you buy as there are only 800 of them for the world. Now look to some guys they care about a period correct serial number and plastics and I get that but for the customers of dealers that I have described above that's all they will buy. There are collectors out there that wont buy a CS or HS guitar no matter what.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  10. #90
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by goldtop0 View Post
    What's a HS? other than what's written above.
    Any pics anywhere?
    An HS serial number guitar stand for "Historic Select" These guitar have all the True Historic specs and plastics but don't carry the vintage correct serial number. They are essentially a True Historic guitar with a different serial number. Mostly these guitars are for export and some are even painted by Tom Murphy as in the Believer Burst run for Japan that I have written about here. Some may say that this is just Gibson's way of getting around of making more True Historic's and calling them something different but as I posted above some collectors wont buy a guitar without the vintage correct serial number. An example of an HS serial number is HS9 5001.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  11. #91

    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by class5lp View Post
    You are wrong about that. Dealers will tell you that they have customers that will only buy a 58,59, or 60 reissue with a vintage correct 5 digit serial number for example 9 5001. Dealers will also tell you that some of their customers wont even buy a reissue late in the year when Gibson uses a 6 digit serial number. That is the reason the True Historic's are limited. If you want a guitar with a historic serial number and all the upgraded plastics than this is what you buy as there are only 800 of them for the world. Now look to some guys they care about a period correct serial number and plastics and I get that but for the customers of dealers that I have described above that's all they will buy. There are collectors out there that wont buy a CS or HS guitar no matter what.
    Quote Originally Posted by class5lp View Post
    An HS serial number guitar stand for "Historic Select" These guitar have all the True Historic specs and plastics but don't carry the vintage correct serial number. They are essentially a True Historic guitar with a different serial number. Mostly these guitars are for export and some are even painted by Tom Murphy as in the Believer Burst run for Japan that I have written about here. Some may say that this is just Gibson's way of getting around of making more True Historic's and calling them something different but as I posted above some collectors wont buy a guitar without the vintage correct serial number. An example of an HS serial number is HS9 5001.
    I love how you disagree with my point in one post, then immediately support it in the next post! Seriously, my point is not whether or not you call it a True Historic. If all the specs are the same, to me it is the same guitar. Let the collectors buy the ones within a certain range of serial numbers. It doesn't matter. To me, the guitars are still the same, and are not the Custom Shop short tenon model. Obviously, I don't care about the ink stamped on the back of the headstock. If I wanted a TH and all 800 were sold out, I would buy a HS and get the exact same thing as far as I am concerned, as opposed to buying a Custom Shop model with the short tenon.

    On a side note, for the collectors you mention who do care about serial numbers, wouldn't only 999 of those guitars be possible in any given year? More than that and they would have to add another digit to the serial number, which would not be historically accurate. So in effect they are only limiting down from 999 to 800. Big whoop.

  12. #92
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Huh, all four of me R series have the 5 digit number. I know my 2000 # 9 0503 is pretty cool as it is very, very similar to a lot of the guitars w/ 9 0500 numbers. I always thought it was kinda cool that it looks like it belongs in that run. Other than that it is just it's number and I didn't buy a number.

    Collectors are picky. I ranted about the ones that will not buy anything over a certain weight. Made me nuts, but collectors and collecting are not where I live so I have a harder time subscribing to their notions. Weight, big tops, certain colors only, certain numbers ect.. are not important to me, BUT ARE TO FOLKS THAT COLLECT THEM. Fair enough, I'm happy to buy the passed over less glamourous ones.

    I remember back in the early 2000's that Gibson severely limited production of R9's and only a few select Dealers could have them, AFTER they paid a hefty fee to be such a special dealer. I remember the price made a jump and I thought, Fine, I can live with the ones I have, I'm not buying this shit.

    It took, what one, two years for that to get sorted out? All I really have to say is, Glad I have what I have, even more so 'cause I goes the extra special, super duper serial number!!
    The older I get, the better I was.

  13. #93
    Les Paul Forum Member tdarian's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    I do think there is a practical consideration with regards to weight though. My 2007 R6 is 9.15 pounds and it does "weigh on me" after a while if it is strapped on and I'm standing. I do love that guitar. I'm getting older though and notice these things now! My 8.11 pound R7 feels super light by comparison. I don't think I'd want to venture North of 9 pounds if it is a guitar I'm going to carry for a long time, but I'm "OK" at 9.
    If I Told You All That Went Down It Would Burn Off Both Of Your Ears

  14. #94
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by class5lp View Post
    An HS serial number guitar stand for "Historic Select" These guitar have all the True Historic specs and plastics but don't carry the vintage correct serial number. They are essentially a True Historic guitar with a different serial number. Mostly these guitars are for export and some are even painted by Tom Murphy as in the Believer Burst run for Japan that I have written about here. Some may say that this is just Gibson's way of getting around of making more True Historic's and calling them something different but as I posted above some collectors wont buy a guitar without the vintage correct serial number. An example of an HS serial number is HS9 5001.

    Thanks for that class5...........are these(export) guitars the same price as a TH?
    Ones that aren't Tom Murphy painted.

  15. #95
    Les Paul Forum Member DanD's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by class5lp View Post
    ... Mostly these guitars are for export and some are even painted by Tom Murphy as in the Believer Burst run for Japan that I have written about here. Some may say that this is just Gibson's way of getting around of making more True Historic's and calling them something different but as I posted above some collectors wont buy a guitar without the vintage correct serial number. An example of an HS serial number is HS9 5001.
    All of Wildwood's and the other premier Gibson dealers' special runs like 'Wildwood's Featherweight' series are designated with HS (Historic Select) serial numbers. It's not just an export thing.

    You really believe the serial numbers for the THRs actually mean anything now?

    They may have meant something before Gibson pulled the plug on their exclusivity by making the same
    guitars en masse with different serial numbering.
    "In Heaven all the interesting people are missing."

  16. #96
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by goldtop0 View Post
    Thanks for that class5...........are these(export) guitars the same price as a TH?
    Ones that aren't Tom Murphy painted.
    The non Murphy painted HS guitars are priced along the same as a True Historic.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  17. #97
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by DanD View Post
    All of Wildwood's and the other premier Gibson dealers' special runs like 'Wildwood's Featherweight' series are designated with HS (Historic Select) serial numbers. It's not just an export thing.

    You really believe the serial numbers for the THRs actually mean anything now?

    They may have meant something before Gibson pulled the plug on their exclusivity by making the same
    guitars en masse with different serial numbering.
    Never said it was "just" an import thing. What I said was they were mostly for import. If the dealers in the states order them I am sure Gibson will build them.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  18. #98
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by GotTheSilver View Post
    I love how you disagree with my point in one post, then immediately support it in the next post! Seriously, my point is not whether or not you call it a True Historic. If all the specs are the same, to me it is the same guitar. Let the collectors buy the ones within a certain range of serial numbers. It doesn't matter. To me, the guitars are still the same, and are not the Custom Shop short tenon model. Obviously, I don't care about the ink stamped on the back of the headstock. If I wanted a TH and all 800 were sold out, I would buy a HS and get the exact same thing as far as I am concerned, as opposed to buying a Custom Shop model with the short tenon.

    On a side note, for the collectors you mention who do care about serial numbers, wouldn't only 999 of those guitars be possible in any given year? More than that and they would have to add another digit to the serial number, which would not be historically accurate. So in effect they are only limiting down from 999 to 800. Big whoop.
    So I guess there is no difference to you then between a True Historic, Historic Select, Frehley, Donna, and Nicky? All the same guitar just different colors and serial numbers.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  19. #99

    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by class5lp View Post
    So I guess there is no difference to you then between a True Historic, Historic Select, Frehley, Donna, and Nicky? All the same guitar just different colors and serial numbers.

    I have never seen a Historic Select in person, so my views are based solely on what I have read here, which I recognize is dangerous. But if it is true that THs and HSs have exactly the same specs other than the serial numbers, then to me they are the same guitar because I personally don't put any value in the serial number on the back of the headstock. I am happy to be corrected on this if I have the wrong understanding of the specs. To me, the CC and Artist series are different because they have different specs. They can have different neck shapes, different pickups, different hardware (some come with Grovers) and have unique wear patterns meant to replicate a specific guitar. That said, they all stem from the same basic model of guitar.

    This is just one person's opinion, so take it for what it is worth. I am not trying to get into an argument with anyone over this. Others may feel differently and that is fine. I would love to get my hands on a HS and A/B it with a TH to find out if they are as similar as it sounds like they are.

  20. #100
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by class5lp View Post
    The non Murphy painted HS guitars are priced along the same as a True Historic.

    Okay, so CS have simply called the THs something else...........HS........and as you say collectors will run a mile

    Good lord there's now TH, CS and HS.........what's gonna be happenin' in '16

  21. #101
    Les Paul Forum Member emg32's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Collectors can nit pick all they want IMO. TH, HS, CC, Artist run, whatever serial number a guy at Gibson wants to stamp. It still won't make any Historic Reissue a Original Burst and as many Historic Reissue that are in the world already very few of them are ever going to be collectors items. Including the TH's, which Gibson will make more of in 2016, 2017, etc...

  22. #102
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by goldtop0 View Post
    Okay, so CS have simply called the THs something else...........HS........and as you say collectors will run a mile

    Good lord there's now TH, CS and HS.........what's gonna be happenin' in '16
    No no no. You guys are getting this all wrong I think. I hope this helps. True Historic's are limited to only 800 pieces and that's it. There are no more in 2015 and they are all allocated for by Gibson according to dealer sales and other factors. Dealers cant order a 59/60 True Historic as once again they are allocated however they may able to order 58's or any of the less popular years other than the 59/60. They all have the vintage correct 5 digit serial numbers.

    Now if a dealer wants to do a custom order or a made to measure they can still do that but the guitar wont have the period correct 5 digit serial number and they may or may not have all the 2015 True Historic specs depending on how they were ordered. They are called Historic Selects and the serial numbers look like this, HS9 5050. You can order a made to measure historic select with all the exact same specs as a true historic but the serial number will be the HS serial number.

    Example: My 59 Believer Burst that is posted here is a 2015 Historic Select guitar. It has all the 2015 TH specs but it is not part of the True Historic series and was a special order for the Japan dealers only and painted by Murphy.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  23. #103
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Quote Originally Posted by emg32 View Post
    Collectors can nit pick all they want IMO. TH, HS, CC, Artist run, whatever serial number a guy at Gibson wants to stamp. It still won't make any Historic Reissue a Original Burst and as many Historic Reissue that are in the world already very few of them are ever going to be collectors items. Including the TH's, which Gibson will make more of in 2016, 2017, etc...
    Duly noted but once again not quite correct in my opinion. You cant tell me that a 2015 Historic Select one of only 22 guitars painted by Murphy is no more rare that any 2014 59 reissue.
    "You know that music died, hurt my pride, but somehow I pulled through, Back in 72" Bob Seger

    "If this monkey on my back gets too heavy I will get an organ grinder and put him to work" Ray Charles

    "Your not a war time consoletti Tom" Michael Corleone

  24. #104
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    Thanks class5 but I was simply making the point that there are a lot of different types of LPs from the Custom Shop.......and so the list goes on......for example it's like the variation in the specs for a model of car.

  25. #105

    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    I know this is an old thread , but I own a historic select from 2016. Chicago music exchange had a 10 guitar run of 1960 bursts with Grovers, lightly aged, with 5 digit serial no.

    https://reverb.com/item/25698278-gib...05-floor-model

  26. #106

    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    I had a True Historic '16. It was a great guitar for where I was at in terms of buying knowledge, etc. My first grown up guitar. And I wanted my first to be brand new for vanity purposes I suppose. Would I pay the same for that now? No. I traded it for a painted and aged Murphy. I bought it used, albeit at a pretty penny, but cheaper nonetheless. I would only buy a more "current" reissue used. If I ever get a third, it will be another painted and aged Murphy, but used. I cannot justify Wildwood's price. I know some folk will argue the merits of Murphy's work, but to my hands and ears it fits best. Someone posted they would only go the used market, which now I understand why. But I totally understand the impulse to buy new if it's a first.

  27. #107
    Les Paul Forum Member renderit's Avatar
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    Re: Historic vs. True Historic

    HS were built for order.
    I.E. M2M TH's.
    Using TH specs.
    YOU chose the color, setup, and other options.
    Fantastic guitars.



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