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Bone vs Nylon nut?

TM1

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Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
8,349
"only with open string" is bullshit.

Try a rubber nut and get back to us.
Geez, do you need to be such an arse? I've tried many things over the last 40 years of working on guitars and I always came back to Nylon or bone. But tell me how when you push down a string onto a metal fret, how will any material behind where your finger is will make any difference? Your finger is deadening the string and anything behind it is a mute point. I've hit a low E at the 5th fret and placed my finger/ hand on the string behind it and don't feel any vibration transfer after where it's being fretted.
 

Black58

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Oct 28, 2005
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10,139
Geez, do you need to be such an arse? I've tried many things over the last 40 years of working on guitars and I always came back to Nylon or bone. But tell me how when you push down a string onto a metal fret, how will any material behind where your finger is will make any difference? Your finger is deadening the string and anything behind it is a mute point. I've hit a low E at the 5th fret and placed my finger/ hand on the string behind it and don't feel any vibration transfer after where it's being fretted.

According to this logic, Grovers shouldn't do anything at all, then. Right? .. But, they DO. Yes, I know about the added mass at the headstock. Yes, I know about the change in break-angle/downforce at the nut. BUT, there's a slight, metalic ringy-ness to the plain strings, open and fretted, and I don't see that quality being the result of either of those changes. The only thing left to create that would be .... what they're made out of. Correct?
 

FretsAlot

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Jan 22, 2003
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931
Personally, I think it perfectly reasonable for the material of the nut to have some effect on the tone of the guitar, even if people think it is out of the equation on a fretted note. Why should any potential effect on tone by the choice of nut material be thought of any differently than the following choices:

  • metallurgy of the bridge and/or tailpiece and/or bridge posts?
  • fretboard wood?
  • alder? ash? maghogany? bodied


With the exception of the bridge saddles, those items aren't in contact with the fretted note either, yet people have a preference for any one of those choices and have a perception on the effect on tone those choices make. Yet, some are moved to near fistfight frenzy if the merits/qualities of various nut materials are considered.

I vote for trying stuff out and choosing what you like. If there was only one optimal answer, we'd all being playing the same guitar, amp, pick & strings.

Hopping off the soapbox,

Fretsalot/Scott
 

Wilko

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Mar 11, 2002
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20,853
I used the obvious example of rubber to show that there is huge difference between rubber and bone/nylon. Bone and nylon are not the same so there is some difference. It may not be as obvious as the difference between rubber and bone, but that doesn't mean that there is no difference.

How 'bout wooden tuner pegs? Rubber tailpiece? Using your logic (or lack thereof) they'd make no difference.

I guess that makes me an arse.

BTW, "you meant to say "moot" point. (that makes me condescending, too)
 
Last edited:

J T

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Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
10,501
I totally agree with Wilco.

Go and put a Snark or Daddario peg head tuner on the head stock. Pluck any open string. E A D G B E. Right?


NOW Play a full fret chord. Look at the pegged tuner. It sees the chord. So fretted notes and nut still matter. The piezo is seeing that vibration. How is it seeing that if the nut doesn't matter on fretted notes?
 

renderit

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Jan 19, 2009
Messages
10,951
Bone or ivory(tusq or fossil) then nylon for me please. I've used the tusq several times now and have been happy. Bone I really like, but cutting it ain't for those with a weak stomach (with power tools especially!). Tusq is man made ivory.
 

Otto Tune

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Nov 4, 2014
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20
Without regard to historical accuracy, I used a Graph Tech Tusc.
The luthier said, "That sure is hard!"
 

Skydogfan81

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Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Messages
910
I have a rush on my r7 and it has been easy to keep in tune and sounds really good with cowboy chords and open strings.
 

Ape Factory

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Feb 17, 2015
Messages
11
I totally agree with Wilco.

Go and put a Snark or Daddario peg head tuner on the head stock. Pluck any open string. E A D G B E. Right?


NOW Play a full fret chord. Look at the pegged tuner. It sees the chord. So fretted notes and nut still matter. The piezo is seeing that vibration. How is it seeing that if the nut doesn't matter on fretted notes?


Well you can also take the same tuner, take it off the guitar and lay it on your desk. Play any note, fretted or otherwise. Surprise, it still registers correctly. Sound waves (vibrations) travel through the air.
 

J T

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Oct 20, 2005
Messages
10,501
Try it with the guitar unplugged and leave the snark on the desk does it still see the note way over there? Do the same thing with the guitar unplugged and the snark on the peg head. What happens?
 

Ape Factory

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Feb 17, 2015
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Try it with the guitar unplugged and leave the snark on the desk does it still see the note way over there? Do the same thing with the guitar unplugged and the snark on the peg head. What happens?

Actually it does. So does my iPhone-based tuner which I've used on numerous occasions to tune up a guitar in my office (where I usually have new to me guitars shipped) and no amp to play them through. Hell no I'm not waiting til I get home to open the box!
 

Mantree

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Feb 21, 2020
Messages
2
It really only makes a tonal difference when the string is open. Nylon makes tuning really smoother I think.

I have changed the nut materiel on a lot of electric guitars. When you say "It only makes a difference when the string is open" you are saying what you personally "intuitively" think to be true. I do not think you are wrong. I know you are wrong. Know it because I have made tests using nylon versus bone and other materials on the same guitar(s) and I can guarantee you that it makes a difference even when fretted. Test next time before jumping to conclusions.

In fact, I often do not even glue in the nut on some of my personal guitars. I do that for when I might want that sound difference for a certain guitar --- my 1961 ES330 for example. I just switch nuts at my next string change and voila. I play clean 98% of the time.

The difference is better heard when you play clean and not with a distortion.

The difference is better heard if you play on a long, Fender scale, neck.

The difference is better heard when you play with the bridge pickup.

The difference is better heard if you dim the lights when you listen.

The difference is better heard if you play the guitar within a few hours of waking up --- with fresh ears.

The difference is more easily noticed if you are younger than 25 years old.

All that said, I can still easily hear the difference even though I more than 50 years old.

Don't believe me? Test brother.

If I find the time, I will record an electric guitar switching between a nylon nut, a bone, a metal nut and a wood nut. Record at 48bits 96Hz and put it on YouTube.

You may not hear the difference but people with "good" ears can.

Ever tried machine heads with brass center posts versus the crap steel of today (like Grovers from China or wherever they are made now). It also makes a difference --- gives you a "rounder" sound. Funny eh because it is behind the nut. No, not funny, it just makes sense because whatever goes down that string "signal chain" is part of the sound. Think about it.

Do you have any vintage "Gibson" machine heads lying around? If you do, then put a magnet to the center posts and you will see that they do not stick to the center posts. Back then it was about sound. Now it is about saving a few pennies. I actually called Grover years ago and that is EXACTLY what they confirmed to me over the phone back then.

So many people, even many guitar craftsmen, think that the metal alloy the female jack is made of makes no difference. They should do like I did. Test brother. I have a box I made with 4 different female jacks and they all sound different. The winner is : Neutrik and vintage Switchcraft jacks. Neutrik lets more highs thru. Switchraft has a "richer rounder sound" but with less highs. The regular Chinese and Japanese jacks sound kind of "lifeless" and cut out a lot of the high frequencies --- which some people may prefer however.

In conclusion: "Test and listen, under the right conditions, before you affirm something".

No hard feeling as you believe exactly the same as a LOT of people that either don't "have good ears" or haven't made any concrete tests as I have --- many times.

Want an easy way to improve a Chinese Strat --- just change that female jack for a Neutrik and enjoy.

Want to know of you male plug is quality or not. Take a magnet and see if it sticks to the the plug. If it does, it is cheapo --- that includes the less expensive Neutrik guitar plugs.

Now don't get me into how wood affects the sound of your guitar. Some people think haha ha ha haha that it is only the pickup that makes a difference. Not so. Not so.

Take care and enjoy your guitar. If you love it, it will love you back no questions asked :)
 

Dave P

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Oct 13, 2001
Messages
976
If you want to go all AVH on your guitar, the nylon nuts look correct. I like bone nuts, especially the unbleached bone nuts. Corian nuts are awful.
 

rick c

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May 28, 2016
Messages
282
My 2c: Other than guitar setup or wiring, just about everything else that regularly comes up as a "technical" item on this and other guitar forums has no true technical merit at all. Everyone has their own entirely subjective opinions; our technical competence, playing experiences, our guitars, the type of music we play, the equipment used to process our guitars, even our hearing and the way we perceive and organize sound in our brains, is all different. There are many people on this and other forums that insist that their highly subjective perspective is right, everyone else is wrong and support this by listing highly subjective comments with zero science to back them up. This is only an Internet guitar forum and I'm a strong supporter of free speech so I expect to read this stuff from time to time. Much off this really is garbage with no scientific merit so I, like many others usually just move on. In the case of this thread, I just had to join in as I've never read so much subjective garbage in one thread.

My highly subjective opinion: There is nothing magical about guitars or guitar set-up. There are certainly a bunch of tricks but there is also a massive, wealth of information on the Internet about the subject and tools are readily available, getting better all the time and relatively cheap to buy. Unless you really have no natural hands-on aptitude, there is no excuse for not being able to set-up a guitar yourself, including choosing and cutting a nut. I'm really fed-up with the "take it to a reputable luthier" line; the same people probably take their bicycles to a "bicycle technician". Unless there's a serious truss rod issue or the thing needs a full refret (not rocket science but a pretty big job for many), most guitar jobs can easily be done by the player. Most are too lazy or disinterested enough to take the time to learn how.

Rebuild a modern sports motorcycle/car engine and then explain to me in scientific terms how the material used in a guitar nut has an effect on the tone of a fretted string. My point is that relative to mechanical and electronic complexity of modern vehicle, a guitar is just a painted piece of wood with a few wires. In case you are wondering, I'm old, and I've been playing and maintaining my guitars since I was 14 (and my bicycles, motorcycles, cars and trucks and home) .
 

J.D.

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Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
10,030
If you want to go all AVH on your guitar, the nylon nuts look correct. I like bone nuts, especially the unbleached bone nuts. Corian nuts are awful.

I disagree that Corian is an awful nut material. This stuff is hard, relatively inexpensive, easy to slot, easy to polish, and easy to replace.
 

Mantree

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Feb 21, 2020
Messages
2
If you are going for historical accuracy, the nylon 6/6 is closer to the 4/6 than bone. "Better"(?) is subjective.
You are right.

Wikipedia "agrees with you":

"Nylon 46 (nylon 4-6, nylon 4/6 or nylon 4,6, PA46, Polyamide 46 is a high heat resistant polyamide or nylon. DSM is the only commercial supplier of this resin, which markets under the trade name Stanyl. As early as the 1930s, when Wallace Carothers produced Nylon for the first time, he noticed nylon 46 has a melting point (Tm) of 278 °C. Without precise control over polymerization processes, one can only get a dark color low molecular weight oligomer without any commercial value. When he discovered the more valuable nylon 66, the development of nylon 46 was shelved.
In 1977, pale to white high-molecular-weight nylon 46 (Mw = 45,000, inherent viscosity 2.09 in 98% formic acid at 30 °C) was produced through a solid-state polymerization (SSP) technique by Gaymans et al.,[2] which gave hope to industrialization of nylon 46. DSM cooperated with Twente University of Technology to accomplish the commercialization of nylon 46 in May 1984, and DSM announced that it had mastered the industrialized process of nylon 46."

In sum, Nylon4/6 was not around in the 1950's or 1960's.

Here is another quote, in sum saying that the nylon sold today as 6/6 is "yes" nylon but not necessarily the same nylon "mixture" that Gibson used in the "good old days". Which means that you will likely not get the same sound as back then from your nylon nut.

"Glass Fiber, Carbon Fiber, Mineral, MoS2, PTFE can be added to Nylon 6/6, up to 40%... and while mechanical properties can be VERY different, it will be Nylon 6/6 still. That is what we might have here with Nylon used for nut by Gibson, back in '50s and now, and for some CC models. Different variants of Nylon 6/6 with various additives. Hence, different hues/colors. Hence, different hardness - resistance to filing, like cooljuk said. Even with all the inventive and impressive commercial names used by different manufacturers, all the specifications of these show the core material for what it still is - Nylon 6/6.There is not only one Nylon 6/6. I've filed both new Gibson nylon nuts and vintage Gibson nylon nuts and, though I can't say for certainty that the formula and not time is responsible for the difference, there is certainly a difference. The old ones file much cleaner, more like bone, as if they are a harder material. The newer ones clog up files and have little "hairs" that stick out from the areas filed. They seem softer."


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Wilko

All Access/Backstage Pass
Joined
Mar 11, 2002
Messages
20,853
how the material used in a guitar nut has an effect on the tone of a fretted string.

Maybe you're too disinterested to learn it.

Seriously like I said earlier. Put a rubber nut on the guitar. Put any regular nut on the guitar. play fretted notes. Get back to us.
 

korus

Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2003
Messages
636
My 2c:
Rebuild a modern sports motorcycle/car engine and then explain to me in scientific terms how the material used in a guitar nut has an effect on the tone of a fretted string. My point is that relative to mechanical and electronic complexity of modern vehicle, a guitar is just a painted piece of wood with a few wires. In case you are wondering, I'm old, and I've been playing and maintaining my guitars since I was 14 (and my bicycles, motorcycles, cars and trucks and home) .

String vibrations are longitudal.Tone is shaped by level of absorbtion OR resonance of overtones that string has in it's vibrations at points it transfers it's vibrations to guitar body - metal (+nut) and then wood.

Force/pressure of tuned string on a nut is greater then force/pressure needed to fret a string. This results with absorbtion OR resonance being greater at nut than at a fret.

Therefore, the nut material is made of defines tone of every note open or fretted more than material frets are made of.

Some can hear these differences, some cannot.
 

gmann

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2003
Messages
6,147
I disagree that Corian is an awful nut material. This stuff is hard, relatively inexpensive, easy to slot, easy to polish, and easy to replace.

Martin uses them, they sound pretty good!
 
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