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  1. #161
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Greco View Post
    Oh boo hoo!
    Yeah, go ahead.

    Maybe I am overworked and too busy to have enough time for the vintage market at moment.

  2. #162
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    No one deserves to get taken on a 1985 Lace Sensor equipped Stratocaster let alone a burst. Regardless of wealth, career, social status or otherwise. We are all enthusiast a started in our childhood wanting to play and collect guitars. I know the celebrity in question and he has been nothing but super kind and generous with both myself and many other up and coming musicians. He is a much deeper musician than the public persona may suggest. But, It is this exact thing ( the fakes and forgeries and the ones that never seem to go to jail. ie: check the one less than satisfied customer in the Ebay section of this forum and look no further) gentleman that threatens to derail the train in the upcoming years. If you can't trust anyone or any instrument that you buy or sell, we should all get ready to take substantial write down on what we as collectors are holding. Its not about the money for some nor is it all about money for others. Its about maintaining a healthy state of the union. If I sold my fans a combination of fake and real tickets to shows how long would it last? Exposing the evil doers is one thing but the most baffling part is that people still do business with them and they are allowed to do business. Buyer beware. Wow.

    Joe B
    Absolutely! This is what I have been saying for a while. If none of us do business with these douche bags then we can sort through their stuff at the courts auction. Once they have been proven crooks, they should be completely shunned. We should by nothing from these people, not strings, picks nothing. They should be plastered on message boards like this one. They should be not invited as venders to the major guitar shows etc. that would impact their business I would think.

    I suppose an issue is what do you do about those who are honest but make an honest mistake or area fooled themselves which will happen from time to time.....iMO it can be hard to tell but the honest dealer will immediately offer to refund the complete sale or a portion of it if a mistake is demonstrated. That is being a professional and what would be expected in any other business. Denial, deflection, putting the blame of this employee etc without doing that is a huge tell. Confidence comes from knowing that the person you are dealing with is honest and that they will stand behind their product.

    I agreethat part of the problem is that there has not been real consequences. Look at MG. they are known to have a shop that was dedicated to producing forgeries....not just passing them on, and they are still in business. What other area of legal work could you be that patently dishonest, have it exposed and successfully prosecuted and stay business? If nothing happens but some mud slinging then why not do it? If legal means don't do it, we as a community have to police ourselves by outing and ostracizing those who are purposely ripping be people off....otherwise as you say, more and more will decide it just isn't worth the risk and we will all lose money and the fun that comes with playing, trading and talking about these instruments. (Steps down off soapbox).
    Last edited by jimmi; 02-17-14 at 07:29 AM.

  3. #163
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    I do, I consider Tom a friend and I have other personal friends on the LPF.
    But right now the negative stories are overwhelming.
    I think the lesson is to be careful and give the business to those who are known to be honest like Tom and Eric (I could add Lou and George...and Kim for that mater to that list) and reward the good behavior. Let them and others as the experts sort through the garbage and find the legit pieces and buy from them.

    Maybe you are right and we need a thread with a more positive bend...."the honest/good guys" as a list of those to trust along with a list of whom to avoid.

  4. #164
    Les Paul Forum Member Groover's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    It was eventually bought for £6000 by Bob Murdoch of RKM Supplies from Sheffield

    Looks an interesting business!

  5. #165
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmi View Post
    Look at MG.
    That particular matter is far from over………..

  6. #166
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Murdoch sold a fake to Maverick in 2006 but I'm not sure it was the same guitar.
    Any photos of either guitar?

  7. #167

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    I do, I consider Tom a friend and I have other personal friends on the LPF.
    But right now the negative stories are overwhelming.
    If you focus on the negative then you will be overwhelmed. I refuse to let a select few ruin my enjoyment and appreciation of vintage guitars. There are far too many good people and great instruments that in reality reflect the majority.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't tread carefully but to be paranoid isn't healthy.

  8. #168

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    Any photos of either guitar?
    No. I last saw the guitar in person when I was 18 years old and haven't seen it since. I'm now 45 and doubt I'd even recognise it. I'd recognise Tony though.

  9. #169

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    That particular matter is far from over………..
    Far from over indeed!

  10. #170
    Les Paul Forum Member 2002standardmat's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Why? Don't you trust anyone? Not even Tom Wittrock or Eric Ernest? This is getting ridiculous. There are more good guys than bad guys.

    I like vintage guitars. I'm not gonna stop enjoying them because of a few dishonest people. The world is full of them but it's also full of honest and trustworthy knowledgable people who value their name over dishonest gain. If I couldn't tell the difference between a fake and a genuine guitar then I'd have quit the business 27 years ago when I was offered a burst with a killer flame top for £1200 which turned out to be a fake which in the end cost someone their job and their reputation. Tony Rawlinson who used to manage the Rhythm House in Stockport and later managed A1 Music in Stockport owned that guitar. It was eventually bought for £6000 by Bob Murdoch of RKM Supplies from Sheffield. Murdoch sold a fake to Maverick in 2006 but I'm not sure it was the same guitar. Tony was last spotted selling mobile phone covers on Ashton Market.
    I remember seeing that guitar in A1's window one Saturday morning in '88 or '89 when Tony brought it in and hung it up with the price tag on it.

    His reasonning at the time was 'if Rhythm House can have nice expensive guitars for sale, so can we'.
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  11. #171

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2002standardmat View Post
    I remember seeing that guitar in A1's window one Saturday morning in '88 or '89 when Tony brought it in and hung it up with the price tag on it.

    His reasonning at the time was 'if Rhythm House can have nice expensive guitars for sale, so can we'.
    He offered it to me in 1986 when I was searching for my first Les Paul. I never trusted him after he sold me an old Fender Twin that kept blowing valves.

  12. #172
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Groover View Post
    It was eventually bought for £6000 by Bob Murdoch of RKM Supplies from Sheffield

    Looks an interesting business!
    Yes, selling Tokais.

  13. #173

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JimCrint View Post
    Yes, selling Tokais.
    In fairness, Bob thought he was buying the real deal.

  14. #174
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(
    Don't let these stories take the fun out of your hobby. Seeing this stuff come to light actually makes me feel a lot better about the vintage guitar world.
    These threads are long overdue.

  15. #175
    Les Paul Forum Member mistersnappy's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(
    No, you may just have to alter what you are looking for and from whom to buy it. Certain items just aint worth trouble to fake.
    "That's what I love, man, to hear that backbeat popping, that damn bass plonkin' down. Jesus God!"-Duane Allman

  16. #176
    Les Paul Forum Member Pat Boyack's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    But right now the negative stories are overwhelming.
    First world problems. You'll get through it my man. Stay strong!!

  17. #177

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    The Bob guitar was subsequently bought for £30k which is the pertinent point- £1200 in '86 is not to be sniffed at but that poorly done replica was sold as the real deal soon after- as it turned out that buyer is a millionaire and in his own words £30k was a slight inconvenience at most and he's over it, but it did reach the intended target even after many years of circulation.

  18. #178

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    FYI Chris Trigg of Vintage And Rare Guitars was unable to call it a replica despite every detail beyond the scale length being incorrect, but that should surprise very few.

  19. #179

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    FYI Chris Trigg of Vintage And Rare Guitars was unable to call it a replica despite every detail beyond the scale length being incorrect, but that should surprise very few.
    Did Trigg sell it?

  20. #180
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(
    One thing about a show like Arlington .... you have a dozen or more guys there who will help you decide if a guitar is "right" or a deal is "fair".
    Outside of a show like that, it is much harder to get that level of help.
    Pauls to the walls!

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  21. #181

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    No, CT didn't sell it, but he knew of its existence as a questionable guitar for many years but wasn't able to call it

  22. #182

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    No, CT didn't sell it, but he knew of its existence as a questionable guitar for many years but wasn't able to call it
    Is this the 'Wizard' guitar then?

  23. #183

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Yes, that's what the 'provenance' stated

  24. #184

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    Yes, that's what the 'provenance' stated
    The guitar I was offered in 1986 by Tony Rawlinson was a lemon colour? but the guitar that Wizard sold for £30,000 was a dark cherry burst. I quizzed Murdoch over the Wizard guitar after I had examined it and he told me he got it from someone in the Northeast. The name Tom Lionel Gibson rings a bell?

  25. #185
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Boyack View Post
    First world problems. You'll get through it my man. Stay strong!!



    I can relate to Hoss' response very well. I lost interest in buying vintage guitars after being overwhelmed by the sheer number of fake Fenders in stores and at guitarshows in germany during the late 80's. It really took the fun out of it. When you feel that way it might be a good time for a self imposed moratorium.

  26. #186

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I saw a fake lemon one too that had an exaggerated belly carve and a fahe ageing, but yes, I am referring to the Wizard guitar which Lionel Gibson sold. I actually met him by pure chance many years later and after chatting to him awhile put the picture together- pretty crazy really!

  27. #187
    Les Paul Forum Member Pat Boyack's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti View Post
    I can relate to Hoss' response very well. I lost interest in buying vintage guitars after being overwhelmed by the sheer number of fake Fenders in stores and at guitarshows in germany during the late 80's. It really took the fun out of it. When you feel that way it might be a good time for a self imposed moratorium.
    I view Fenders differently. Leo himself had no problem using parts that were sitting around for a couple of years into current production. They are basically parts guitars from the start.

  28. #188
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Boyack View Post
    I view Fenders differently
    I'm getting back into mine recently........

  29. #189
    Les Paul Forum Member Beano Geno's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Boyack View Post
    I view Fenders differently. Leo himself had no problem using parts that were sitting around for a couple of years into current production. They are basically parts guitars from the start.
    Yes, but would you pay "original" money for a frankenstrat?

  30. #190

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Boyack View Post
    I view Fenders differently. Leo himself had no problem using parts that were sitting around for a couple of years into current production. They are basically parts guitars from the start.
    yup
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  31. #191
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Boyack View Post
    I view Fenders differently. Leo himself had no problem using parts that were sitting around for a couple of years into current production. They are basically parts guitars from the start.
    Yes, parts guitars but they better be genuine Fender parts. You should have seen the stuff that was hanging in so-called vintage stores in germany or at guitar shows (like the 1988 Berlin guitar show at Congesshalle Berlin)
    No legit pre-CBS fenders anywhere, but "converted"70's strats (they weren't vintage back then) ,and Squiers with fender logos. Lot's of refins that were so poorly done that even I could spot them. I made the "mistake"of going there with a friend who owns a few very nice pieces and he pointed all that stuff out to me. he said he'd never seen so many fakes in one place before.
    After that experience it was clear to me that the collectioble guitar market is not for me.

  32. #192

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beano Geno View Post
    Yes, but would you pay "original" money for a frankenstrat?
    nope
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  33. #193

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Years ago I got stitched up on a 1959 Les Paul Special I bought on eBay off a dude called Oliver Grandke from Music Plus in Cologne in Germany. The guitar arrived in two pieces with no splinters in the case and he refused to give me a refund because he shipped it without insurance. I left negative feedback and people began to email me asking what happened. He began to lose business as a result of me sharing my negative experience and he threatened to sue me for bad mouthing him.

  34. #194

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Another lesson learned.

  35. #195
    Les Paul Forum Member 2002standardmat's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    The guitar I was offered in 1986 by Tony Rawlinson was a lemon colour? but the guitar that Wizard sold for £30,000 was a dark cherry burst. I quizzed Murdoch over the Wizard guitar after I had examined it and he told me he got it from someone in the Northeast. The name Tom Lionel Gibson rings a bell?
    I don't want to muddy the waters and by all means discard my next comment as my 10 minute glimpse at the guitar is all I have to remember but I am pretty darn sure the one I was in A1's window was a dark cherry burst, it certainly wasn't a lemon (in colour that is), there was certainly a lot of red in it.

    Will have been a Saturday some time in June/July 1989 - ain't it funny the things you remember, like your first 'burst'...
    Last edited by 2002standardmat; 02-17-14 at 02:20 PM.
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  36. #196

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I have detailed pics of the £30k fake I took when I had it so I might post a pic or two if anyone really cares?

  37. #197
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    I have detailed pics of the £30k fake I took when I had it so I might post a pic or two if anyone really cares?
    I do, so please do.

  38. #198
    Les Paul Forum Member 2002standardmat's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Yep, I am interested.
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    1993 MIJ 60’s Strat
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  39. #199
    Les Paul Forum Member Otto 57's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I'd love to see what was passing as 'real' in London in the 80's.

  40. #200
    Les Paul Forum Member Pat Boyack's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beano Geno View Post
    Yes, but would you pay "original" money for a frankenstrat?
    How can one say that a vintage Fender isn't or is a FrankenStrat, FrankenTele or so on? And original Fender can have a neck that is 2 years older than the body. So a guy can put one together and still call it original. I bet there have been plenty of Fenders that have been put together and called original or sold as Franken(whatever) and then later sold as original. As stated before that is the problem with trying to verify those type of guitars.

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