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  1. #121
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Well, Paul Stanley is parading a fake burst as the 'real deal'.

    He said "artist"

  2. #122
    Les Paul Forum Member madformac's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti View Post
    He said "artist"
    A make up artist is still an artist

  3. #123

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti View Post
    He said "artist"
    Con artist?

  4. #124
    Les Paul Forum Member Groover's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Laughed my ass off JJ Word of the week "cuntiest"

  5. #125
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    Well, I don't know what it sold for but he had it on his website for 180.
    As much as I was involved in "outing" that mess, I encouraged the buyer to go to their booth and buy it ... which he did.
    I don't know the final number [which I wouldn't reveal anyway], but it was well under $180K.
    Pauls to the walls!

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  6. #126
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Who is he connected with in the uk?
    Graceland Guitars is Mark Grace in South Africa, and his father Alan Grace in England.
    The website only mentions they are a father/son team, and all addressing is in South Africa.

    I do not know of any connections between Alan [or Mark] and the infamous MG crowd, so I do not connect them.
    Pauls to the walls!

    Hüter der Flammen!

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  7. #127
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Groover View Post
    Laughed my ass off JJ Word of the week "cuntiest"
    Seriously. It was one of those places where you'd go in, and the sales people ignore you, and give you that slight attitude of contempt, unless you're famous and they recognize you. You could be standing at the counter for fifteen minutes before they acknowledge you, while they sit there, regaling themselves with stories of what Jon Brion just bought.

    I've seen that game in antique shops. It's like, "I'm going to pretend you're not important, so that you'll buy something really expensive to try to get my approval."

  8. #128
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    I doubt it matters who, it seems every UK guy that's ever looked at, even in passing, anything vintage, is a gobshite. Glass houses springs to mind, of course said in the same spirit of generalisation that appears to be the gathering norm here. All UK enthusiasts are NOT, I repeat NOT Music Ground by proxy.
    I agree, and probably should not have mentioned the UK connection, but it seemed relevant.

    And, I know several dealers and collectors in England that I trust as honest and decent people in the vintage guitar world.
    MG has been THE vintage dealer in the UK for so long, their bad reputation sullies many others in the country. And, mentioning them sometimes brings out others or their kind.
    I would not put Graceland in their category. I know of only this one deal that was "handled poorly" to put it mildly and fairly.
    Pauls to the walls!

    Hüter der Flammen!

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  9. #129
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Well, Paul Stanley is parading a fake burst as the 'real deal'.
    Who does this reflect worse on.....Stanley - and artist that may have owned a burst but is primarily a player or GM who is supposed to be an experienced luthier and supposed expert?

  10. #130
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TW59 View Post
    I agree, and probably should not have mentioned the UK connection, but it seemed relevant.

    And, I know several dealers and collectors in England that I trust as honest and decent people in the vintage guitar world.
    MG has been THE vintage dealer in the UK for so long, their bad reputation sullies many others in the country. And, mentioning them sometimes brings out others or their kind.
    I would not put Graceland in their category. I know of only this one deal that was "handled poorly" to put it mildly and fairly.
    I think for right or wrong, there are enough people connected with MG and the lengths that they have gone to create forgeries that anyone connected with them or near them will be viewed with suspicion and have to "prove" their honesty. It is the way it is...it is hard to wash off the stink once it is there.

    I know I am very reluctant to deal with any dealers from the UK because of it and some of the ones that have moved to the states. I personally would pay more to deal with people I know to be honest and it is hard to nail down the history from another country. I think threads like this one help the honest dealers as much as hurt the dishonest ones.

  11. #131
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Larceny and skullduggery is Larceny and skullduggery regardless of accents. I agree that MG's tentacles have burrowed deep into the psyche somewhat, but to tar all the UK enthusiasts (and I use that word deliberately) with the same brush is erroneous.Where big money is, the bandits aren't usually far behind. However, I see plenty of good guys too championing the cause. All hope is not lost.

    The OT author, Banker, is a Brit, to name but one. I wouldn't bat an eyelid in seeking out his advice and or opinion... so by definition is He tarred with the MG brush too? My reading of this section over the years has shown that he is associated with the MG shennanigans...by being vocal and consistent in his opposition to the parlous state of their nefarious dealings. He is not alone on these shores. Please, let us be really careful with these generalisations, otherwise MG, and their denizens truly have pissed in the well, and spoiled the water permanently.


  12. #132
    Les Paul Forum Member Black58's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I admit that I sometimes try to pass off
    ketchup and rubber bands as a spaghetti dinner.

  13. #133
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TW59 View Post
    As much as I was involved in "outing" that mess, I encouraged the buyer to go to their booth and buy it ... which he did.
    I don't know the final number [which I wouldn't reveal anyway], but it was well under $180K.
    Of course. I also don't know what Guitarpoint paid for the guitar and what they sold it for, I just know the price tag from their website.

  14. #134
    Les Paul Forum Member Doc Sausage's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Once again, it may be a blessing that I can't afford the genuine article. I can't authenticate that that is Paul Stanley, much less, a REAL vintage burst!
    "I don't want to be part of any club that would accept me as a member" - Groucho Marx

  15. #135

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmi View Post
    Who does this reflect worse on.....Stanley - and artist that may have owned a burst but is primarily a player or GM who is supposed to be an experienced luthier and supposed expert?
    Both.

  16. #136
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    He is not alone on these shores.
    The vast majority of what I've learned and shared, to one extent or another, is directly from good upstanding UK dealers who are as sick and tired of the usual suspects as the rest of us. They don't frequent forums. Nor do they particularly wish to be public in what they share, but behind the scenes they tip off as many people as they can on who to avoid, but do so in their own individual way.

    I've acted as a conduit, not an expert……..which I couldn't possibly claim to be even if I wished it to be so.

  17. #137
    Les Paul Forum Member mistersnappy's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Sausage View Post
    Once again, it may be a blessing that I can't afford the genuine article. I can't authenticate that that is Paul Stanley, much less, a REAL vintage burst!
    I feel ya. My vintage goals are modest and sometimes I get lucky, like finding a '38 EH-150 at a local pawnshop and a mint '62 Fender Deluxe on eBay.
    "That's what I love, man, to hear that backbeat popping, that damn bass plonkin' down. Jesus God!"-Duane Allman

  18. #138

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Paul Stanley probably doesn't care two bits. I'd bet he was just yanking everyone's chain.
    Gord Miller is an expert repaiman, not a vintage guitar authenticator. I've seen & handled a TON of his stuff I would send him any work I needed done in a heartbeat.
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  19. #139

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogswell View Post
    Paul Stanley probably doesn't care two bits. I'd bet he was just yanking everyone's chain.
    Gord Miller is an expert repaiman, not a vintage guitar authenticator. I've seen & handled a TON of his stuff I would send him any work I needed done in a heartbeat.
    Maybe PS doesn't care, but one day someone else may.

  20. #140
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Maybe PS doesn't care, but one day someone else will own that guitar.

  21. #141
    Les Paul Forum Member Triburst's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Maybe PS doesn't care, but one day someone else may (own that guitar).
    But then, it will be a "celebrity owned" guitar with some mysterious "issues."

    Aaaannnd we're back.

  22. #142

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Triburst View Post
    But then, it will be a "celebrity owned" guitar with some mysterious "issues."

    Aaaannnd we're back.
    Yeah, issues being a non Gibson neck and body

  23. #143
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by ourmaninthenorth View Post
    Larceny and skullduggery is Larceny and skullduggery regardless of accents. I agree that MG's tentacles have burrowed deep into the psyche somewhat, but to tar all the UK enthusiasts (and I use that word deliberately) with the same brush is erroneous.Where big money is, the bandits aren't usually far behind. However, I see plenty of good guys too championing the cause. All hope is not lost.

    The OT author, Banker, is a Brit, to name but one. I wouldn't bat an eyelid in seeking out his advice and or opinion... so by definition is He tarred with the MG brush too? My reading of this section over the years has shown that he is associated with the MG shennanigans...by being vocal and consistent in his opposition to the parlous state of their nefarious dealings. He is not alone on these shores. Please, let us be really careful with these generalisations, otherwise MG, and their denizens truly have pissed in the well, and spoiled the water permanently.

    I agree from everything I know of "banker" he is a stand up guy and i am sure there are others but the reality is the actions of several connects with MG has tainted the vintage world in the UK for many. I know several who just will not consider anything from there. There are many forgeries running around and it is hard to know what to believe honestly. It has made it hard for the honest ones fair or not and unfortunate for them.
    Last edited by jimmi; 02-16-14 at 04:30 PM.

  24. #144
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogswell View Post
    Paul Stanley probably doesn't care two bits. I'd bet he was just yanking everyone's chain.
    Gord Miller is an expert repaiman, not a vintage guitar authenticator. I've seen & handled a TON of his stuff I would send him any work I needed done in a heartbeat.
    If hacks like me can tell from a couple pictures on the web then a guy who works on it for a living should be on top of it. By now it has to have made it back to him information posted on his site is incorrect. Even if he missed it the first time i would think he would not want to give authenticity to a fake. It is important to be professional especially when an honest mistake is made (giving him the benefit of the doubt).

    As far as Stanley goes, he and Gene are salesman as much as musicians. I agree he may not care or was truly told something to the contrary and too embarrassed to back track.

  25. #145

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    There's a small minority of good guys in the UK scene, and many total villains, and all are intertwined by the sheer necessity of the size and logistics of the domestic market. Everyone on the other side of the counter knows to varying degrees who is bent, who screwed who, what guitars are bogus with no discretion or secrecy, and it's always been like that, and the public will rarely be invited into that club. Suffice to say the info shared recently is remarkable and a rare insight- however, I can relay that someone who fell foul of a long established and publicly regarded but total scumbag central London dealer in the last few years apparently did ring around other dealers for references and no-one told him straight, and he suffered for it, so even a direct advance is no guarantee.

  26. #146

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    There's a small minority of good guys in the UK scene, and many total villains, and all are intertwined by the sheer necessity of the size and logistics of the domestic market. Everyone on the other side of the counter knows to varying degrees who is bent, who screwed who, what guitars are bogus with no discretion or secrecy, and it's always been like that, and the public will rarely be invited into that club. Suffice to say the info shared recently is remarkable and a rare insight- however, I can relay that someone who fell foul of a long established and publicly regarded but total scumbag central London dealer in the last few years apparently did ring around other dealers for references and no-one told him straight, and he suffered for it, so even a direct advance is no guarantee.
    A very good post although necessity no longer applies.

    Your guy didn't ring me. I also know two people owed in excess of £100,000 by a once reputable central London dealer.

  27. #147

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Which guy was that Rich?
    As for the central London dealer we're talking about Chris Trigg right? There's a name all should remember and all should avoid.

  28. #148

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    Which guy was that Rich?
    As for the central London dealer we're talking about Chris Trigg right? There's a name all should remember and all should avoid.
    I meant the guy who rang around for references never rang me.

    Trigg is no longer in London. he sold the Denmark Street shop a year ago and it's now officially a completely different business with no association to V&R.

  29. #149
    Les Paul Forum Member madformac's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumping@Shadows View Post
    Which guy was that Rich?
    As for the central London dealer we're talking about Chris Trigg right? There's a name all should remember and all should avoid.
    If you you could drop me an email (your email address here bounces on me) regarding said dealer I would be grateful as you may be able to shed some light on a guitar of mine. Cheers

  30. #150

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    There are numerous ways of taking shavings off the wood and plastic of a guitar that would not be cosmetically damaging. Take a sliver of mahogany from inside the channel where the jack resides, a tiny slice from the fingerboard where it joins the nut, a shaving from the maple cap in the pickup wiring channel, plastic from inside the knob, and paper tape from an uncovered PAF. All items can be tested in a spectrometer, and verified to be authentic. Why hasn't an authenticator seized on CSI techniques to distinguish himself from those who can only offer to do sniff tests?

  31. #151
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Speaking of evildoers, this cat Andy. I mean, it's not unethical, but it's kinda fucked up the way he takes these guitars and parts them out, if you ask me.

    I'm sure this '58 ES-175 was enjoying life in one piece, before it met him.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/vintage_sale...p2047675.l2562

  32. #152

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    Speaking of evildoers, this cat Andy. I mean, it's not unethical, but it's kinda fucked up the way he takes these guitars and parts them out, if you ask me.

    I'm sure this '58 ES-175 was enjoying life in one piece, before it met him.

    http://www.ebay.com/sch/vintage_sale...p2047675.l2562
    Parting a guitar out isn't a crime but this switch tip he's got listed isn't a catalin tip from the '50s, I can tell you that
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Vin...item1e87396746
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  33. #153

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogswell View Post
    Parting a guitar out isn't a crime but this switch tip he's got listed isn't a catalin tip from the '50s, I can tell you that
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Vin...item1e87396746
    But it came off his '59 Blonde ES-175 so it must be right!

  34. #154

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    lol! So, as in the "100% Original" thread, if he had simply stated "switch tip from a 1959 ES-175" he would be completely correct!
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  35. #155
    Les Paul Forum Member JBLPplayer's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    No one deserves to get taken on a 1985 Lace Sensor equipped Stratocaster let alone a burst. Regardless of wealth, career, social status or otherwise. We are all enthusiast a started in our childhood wanting to play and collect guitars. I know the celebrity in question and he has been nothing but super kind and generous with both myself and many other up and coming musicians. He is a much deeper musician than the public persona may suggest. But, It is this exact thing ( the fakes and forgeries and the ones that never seem to go to jail. ie: check the one less than satisfied customer in the Ebay section of this forum and look no further) gentleman that threatens to derail the train in the upcoming years. If you can't trust anyone or any instrument that you buy or sell, we should all get ready to take substantial write down on what we as collectors are holding. Its not about the money for some nor is it all about money for others. Its about maintaining a healthy state of the union. If I sold my fans a combination of fake and real tickets to shows how long would it last? Exposing the evil doers is one thing but the most baffling part is that people still do business with them and they are allowed to do business. Buyer beware. Wow.

    Joe B

  36. #156

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    The sad fact is, as a 'civilian' it's very easy to get duped and very hard to get compensated and dealers know that- many if not most give up after years of chasing and legal fees etc and no-one has the energy, finances or simple rage enough to stay the course. It's rather esoteric white collar crime and most unsuspecting, genuine enthusiasts finding themselves at the wrong end of a deal are not prepared or equipped to exert the force needed to bring the guilty parties to justice.

  37. #157
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(

  38. #158

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(
    Why? Don't you trust anyone? Not even Tom Wittrock or Eric Ernest? This is getting ridiculous. There are more good guys than bad guys.

    I like vintage guitars. I'm not gonna stop enjoying them because of a few dishonest people. The world is full of them but it's also full of honest and trustworthy knowledgable people who value their name over dishonest gain. If I couldn't tell the difference between a fake and a genuine guitar then I'd have quit the business 27 years ago when I was offered a burst with a killer flame top for £1200 which turned out to be a fake which in the end cost someone their job and their reputation. Tony Rawlinson who used to manage the Rhythm House in Stockport and later managed A1 Music in Stockport owned that guitar. It was eventually bought for £6000 by Bob Murdoch of RKM Supplies from Sheffield. Murdoch sold a fake to Maverick in 2006 but I'm not sure it was the same guitar. Tony was last spotted selling mobile phone covers on Ashton Market.

  39. #159
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Why? Don't you trust anyone? Not even Tom Wittrock or Eric Ernest?
    I do, I consider Tom a friend and I have other personal friends on the LPF.
    But right now the negative stories are overwhelming.

  40. #160
    Les Paul Forum Member Greco's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    All these reports are making me sad. I was looking forward to this year's Arlington show but right now I don't feel like buying another vintage guitar :(
    Oh boo hoo!

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