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  1. #41
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beano Geno View Post
    So has Joe gotten out of the vintage guitar business? or just the LPF?
    He is riding his bike a lot, has sold Gladys and has left the LPF because he "moved on with his life".
    His website is still up and I know of at least one Burst deal last year which involved Ganz and a famous musician.

  2. #42
    Les Paul Forum Member ChevChelios's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    There's a reason Ganzler won't verify Fenders.
    From his website: "..., Mr. Ganzler will go anywhere in the World (except the Middle East) on 24 hours' notice to examine/authenticate any 1957-1960 Gibson or 1950-1971 Fender guitar."

  3. #43
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I talked to him yesterday, he's doing just fine.

  4. #44
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    There's a reason Ganzler won't verify Fenders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.ChevChelios View Post
    From his website: "..., Mr. Ganzler will go anywhere in the World (except the Middle East) on 24 hours' notice to examine/authenticate any 1957-1960 Gibson or 1950-1971 Fender guitar."
    That's just his webmaster talking.

  5. #45
    loufed52
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti View Post
    That's just his webmaster talking.
    Touché.

  6. #46

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    He is riding his bike a lot, has sold Gladys and has left the LPF because he "moved on with his life".
    His website is still up and I know of at least one Burst deal last year which involved Ganz and a famous musician.
    Wait - I must have missed that. He sold Gladys???

  7. #47
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by VonPrikler View Post
    Wait - I must have missed that. He sold Gladys???
    Yes, through Fretted Americana. It sat there for >$400K for 9 months or so

  8. #48
    Les Paul Forum Member Beano Geno's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by VonPrikler View Post
    Wait - I must have missed that. He sold Gladys???
    I didn't know that either....I remember he always posted here that he would never sell it. I guess things changed.

  9. #49
    Les Paul Forum Member Beano Geno's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    Yes, through Fretted Americana. It sat there for >$400K for 9 months or so
    Did PhilX do a video demo?

  10. #50

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    Yes, through Fretted Americana. It sat there for >$400K for 9 months or so
    Wow - I thought he had just loaned it there. I knew it was there for a time, and makes sense that there was a reason, but I must have just assumed nobody would ever sell that guitar.

  11. #51
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    Yes, through Fretted Americana. It sat there for >$400K for 9 months or so
    How do you know that Gladys was sold?

  12. #52
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beano Geno View Post
    Did PhilX do a video demo?
    Yeah he did!

    Some Gladys replicas allegedly have been made, too. This was in another thread

  13. #53
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Sorry, I thought I read on his website a few years ago that because the nature of the Fender forgeries and how easy it was, that he would do them any more.

    My mistake.

  14. #54
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti View Post
    How do you know that Gladys was sold?
    I've heard so. But what do I know.

  15. #55
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    I've heard so. But what do I know.

    would be interesting to know what a top tier Burst fetches these days.

  16. #56
    Les Paul Forum Member Triburst's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    Just an observation that I think it's a very positive move on the forum that the veil of secrecy around fake or altered guitars, and the shifty dealers, is being increasingly exposed on this forum. Seeing "names named" is a very welcome development, let's keep it going. Thanks to all the contributors who are shining light into the dark corners.
    As others have mentioned, I have also thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughts on vintage Marshall amps. Thanks to you as well for your own "light shining" contributions.

  17. #57

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Agree 111%..

    Thinking a lot has to do with the www. world we live in.

    20 years ago , not too many were "on-line".. Today , everyone is. Information is at ones
    fingertips making fraud & deception much harder than it once was , IMO.

    One can "Google" huge amounts of "real" info on any subject matter.

  18. #58
    All Access/Backstage Pass lpnv59's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Regarding Ganz....the community was a turn off and he went cycling. He sold his burst because he found a buyer who met his price. That simple....everything is for sale even when it isn't.
    "It's a Marshall bubby. It gets loud." Ace Frehley

  19. #59
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpnv59 View Post
    Regarding Ganz....the community was a turn off and he went cycling. He sold his burst because he found a buyer who met his price. That simple....everything is for sale even when it isn't.
    It was on consignment at FA for almost a year and did not sell (they were asking $440K if I remember correctly).

  20. #60
    Les Paul Forum Member shred's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Regarding the Greeny thread and Denmark St... Should we just throw Greeny into the Boston harbor...
    Last edited by shred; 02-14-14 at 04:22 AM.


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  21. #61

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skipped View Post
    A forum member who lives in the North West of the Uk has bought at least one very expensive vintage guitar from a particular ebay seller, which turned out to be not as described. He has had some assistance from knowledgeable forum members and I hope that at some point we will hear about a satisfactory outcome. A member of the other forum posted a NGD thread showing a '54 GT from the same seller. The buyer must have been stunned to see the replies pointing out some rather alarming issues.

    It is a tragedy that - to date - we, the people who read these posts, have not yet thought of a way to stop a seller from reposting such guitars on ebay with the same description after (presumably) agreeing to take them back.
    Due dilligence is a good thing, and is good advice. But at some point in the near future, another poor soul is going to find this forum, and then join the forum, after buying one of these guitars.
    There must be an answer - and the answer seems to lie somewhere in the following area. Putting together - The knowledge of the online community.....and ebay. I don't know enough about ebay to guess what the options might be but I do know that if the seller decided to change his ID and then reposted the guitars, 20 people who are reading this thread would immediately recognize the problem guitar/guitars.
    You're referring to eBay crook Rockkystar, aren't you?

    I exposed a number of Rockkystar's frauds on this forum in a number of posts, see for example:

    BREAKING: eBay fraud rockkystar almost honest

    In these posts I used some SEO tricks to make these posts appear at the top position in Google. So if you search for "Rockkystar", one of the first things - if not the first thing - you see is a post exposing Lord Keith Douglas-Dickens. This way, if someone thinks about buying from Rockkystar but checks Google first, he or she has a fair warning.

    So if we name names, provide proof (important!) and have long forum discussions where a lot of people participate (Google loves activity), everyone can get a fair warning!

    PS I know that the person from France who bought a '63 SG Standard with undisclosed issues and changes reached a settlement with Lord Keith.

  22. #62
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I've been trying to expose fraud through this site on bursts (and guitars in general) for years. Frankly, i was told to stop doing it from the "heavy hitters" here. Bottom line, as taken from a movie, "you can't handle the truth." There's a lot of down side to doing this, and frankly not much upside. It took me a while to get the message, but now i have to agree with that thinking, and in general, i keep quiet.

    Generally speaking, the number of people that actually buy these expensive guitars is very small. So the fraud info is really only good for those types. And if you have a big pile of money and you're not willing to hire a guy to check out the guitar ahead, then it's your fault. That's the general thinking. That people "in the know" are the ones that "know it all". And the rest of the world doesn't have to know all the dirty details, because they're not really buying the stuff. It's just entertainment on "who's screwing whom."

  23. #63
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I couldn't agree with you less.

    Those active in guitar and amplifier fraud, as we have seen, do not restrict their activities to the rarefied 'burst market. On the contrary, they tend to also target lower absolute price but higher margin opportunities. Vested interests will always seek to maintain a veil of secrecy behind which to continue their malevolent activities. Disclosure and transparency are friends to the honest and upstanding.
    Last edited by Banker; 02-14-14 at 07:49 AM.

  24. #64
    loufed52
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    I couldn't agree with you less.

    Those active in guitar and amplifier fraud, as we have seen, do not restrict their activities to the rarefied 'burst market. On the contrary, they tend to also target lower absolute price but higher margin opportunities. Vested interests will always seek to maintain a veil of secrecy behind which to continue their malevolent activities. Disclosure and transparency are friends to the honest and upstanding.
    I couldn't agree with you more.
    Many vintage dealers have a multi-tier disclosure ethic based on the perceived knowledge and resources of the potential buyer.

    It's very easy, and profitable, to do a splashy big deal with a well known guitarist/collector.
    That creates "buzz" and a semblance of legitimacy for the dealer.
    That dealer may be less forthcoming with the next deal, big or small, and make some nice money.
    If he gets called on it, he can make good and save his reputation.
    If not, he gets over.

    To me, that's the more subtle, and dangerous, part of this business for the average buyer.
    It's like when you go into a car dealer and they ask you how much you want to pay each month- you'll get something, but it may not be the best deal.

  25. #65
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by loufed52 View Post
    It's very easy, and profitable, to do a splashy big deal with a well known guitarist/collector.
    That creates "buzz" and a semblance of legitimacy for the dealer.
    In the old days you had signed pictures of stars behind the counter of guitar stores but these days it's all over the web.

    "So-and-so visited the store today and testdrove or bought a Burst"

    What happens with these Youtube videos done by well known guitarists/collectors is that they end up being quasi-endorsements of the dealer.
    What you see is a guy playing a guitar or visiting the store but the underlying message is that this dealer/ gear-for-hire person is trustworthy.
    In many cases this is not a problem because the message is truthful and a good dealer gets great publicity. But I can think of cases where these videos lent credibility to guys who don't deserve it. The well known guitarist/collector is (for lack of a better term) "victimized" as well in these instances.
    Last edited by yeti; 02-14-14 at 10:07 AM.

  26. #66
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    So far, in the couple of pages of this thread, we've exposed....hmmm....let me think... Some unknown person associated with a Sotherby's auction and an unnamed ebay dealer who may or may not be rockystar.

    Nonetheless, this is actually all very interesting.

  27. #67

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by trmckn View Post
    So far, in the couple of pages of this thread, we've exposed....hmmm....let me think... Some unknown person associated with a Sotherby's auction and an unnamed ebay dealer who may or may not be rockystar...
    that hasn't remotely escaped me...65 posts later (one doesn't count). but, don't worry.
    Last edited by gilapagostortois; 02-14-14 at 10:53 AM.

  28. #68
    All Access/Backstage Pass lpnv59's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? For those wondering, Ganzler Inc is still very much in business of authenticating vintage instruments and 2013 was Joe's best year. In fact he went all Sherlock Holmes in a court case involving an original sparkle finish Stratocaster. I won't give details. But the legal team who hired him won the case.

    And Fretted Americana was not involved in the sale of Gladys.
    "It's a Marshall bubby. It gets loud." Ace Frehley

  29. #69

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpnv59 View Post
    Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? ...
    it can CERTAINLY be the customer, but it seems it's usually the dealer. P.S. (nice shirt)

  30. #70
    All Access/Backstage Pass lpnv59's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by gilapagostortois View Post
    it can CERTAINLY be the customer, but it seems it's usually the dealer. P.S. (nice shirt)
    Well in this thread it does. But I think it goes both ways. Customers playing dumber than they really are. Its just like buying a car. How many go to trade in a car thats never been in an accident. We're all bozos on this bus.
    "It's a Marshall bubby. It gets loud." Ace Frehley

  31. #71

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpnv59 View Post
    Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? For those wondering, Ganzler Inc is still very much in business of authenticating vintage instruments and 2013 was Joe's best year. In fact he went all Sherlock Holmes in a court case involving an original sparkle finish Stratocaster. I won't give details. But the legal team who hired him won the case.

    And Fretted Americana was not involved in the sale of Gladys.
    Those sparkle finishes are a thing of their own. They weren't painted in house at Fender and to the novice you'd pass them as a refinish.

  32. #72
    loufed52
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpnv59 View Post
    Well in this thread it does. But I think it goes both ways. Customers playing dumber than they really are. Its just like buying a car. How many go to trade in a car thats never been in an accident. We're all bozos on this bus.
    There's plenty of asshole customers, that's for sure.
    But I fail to see the problem with a customer not immediately revealing their knowledge level.
    It's a pretty good way to determine if the seller will take advantage of the ignorant.
    I doubt that you're intimating that this is okay.

  33. #73
    Les Paul Forum Member sillytele's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I think that all of the shenanigans come home to roost when our guitars are passed on to family members when we pass away. Our children may not be interested in the guitar, but the money they can bring.
    At this time the value of the instrument will come into play. I think technology exists that not only will allow for truthful appraisal but also registry of any forinsic, specific information of said guitar. The guitar can then have a microchip inserted that will store this information and be a heriditary touchstone for future owners. Kind of like a black light on steroids.
    If it can be done with dogs, it can be done with guitars.
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  34. #74
    Les Paul Forum Member ChevChelios's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    With the right tools, you can even determine the exact age of the glue, lacquer, etc. Problem is that these tools are very expensive, but almost every bigger university has them ...

  35. #75
    Les Paul Forum Member Rev.WillieVK's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.ChevChelios View Post
    With the right tools, you can even determine the exact age of the glue, lacquer, etc. Problem is that these tools are very expensive, but almost every bigger university has them ...
    The problem is that a lot of those tools are 1) invasive, 2) destructive, and 3) expensive.

    Ask a Burst owner to carve off a sliver of mahogany or rosewood from his Burst for testing and see what reaction you get!

  36. #76
    Les Paul Forum Member Triburst's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    I've lurked around here reading about these vintage guitars and the secret "tells," many of which remain closely guarded secrets among what is basically a guild of experts. Though I'm very much for "outing" the bad players in this business, I'm fine with these secrets remaining secrets, even though it's doubtful I would ever be in the circle to get to learn them.

    Some may disagree, but I continue to believe that this secrecy is a very good thing, not because it gives job security to those few experts, but because it simply raises the bar (usually, to unattainable highs) for most guitar forgers. (I'm with TW59 -- it's not a "replica" if it says "Gibson," it's a forgery).

    So, if one of these experts finds the radius of the curvature of the thingamajig on the whatchmacallit is supposed to be "X," and it's "Y," you're busted. Good! And please identify the players involved.

  37. #77
    Les Paul Forum Member MapleFlame's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    After that Catalogue Burst fiasco I was involved in, I found out how many guys help cover each others ass. I have had the best luck buying from original owners through several ways.
    Top carves are sexy

  38. #78
    All Access/Backstage Pass Cody's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by MapleFlame View Post
    After that Catalogue Burst fiasco I was involved in, I found out how many guys help cover each others ass.
    What happened?

  39. #79
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpnv59 View Post
    Sometimes the evil doers are not the dealer but the innocent and always self righteous customer....wouldn't you agree Gilapago? For those wondering, Ganzler Inc is still very much in business of authenticating vintage instruments and 2013 was Joe's best year. In fact he went all Sherlock Holmes in a court case involving an original sparkle finish Stratocaster. I won't give details. But the legal team who hired him won the case.

    And Fretted Americana was not involved in the sale of Gladys.
    This was not the blue sparkle strat, was it, and that knuckle head in the northeast who sued the seller he bought it from?

  40. #80
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    What happened?
    If I remember correctly: It was for sale a couple of years ago, then the forums discovered that it is the Burst from the old black and white Gibson catalog and the seller backed out of a done deal and increased the price.

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