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  1. #1
    Banker
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    Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Just an observation that I think it's a very positive move on the forum that the veil of secrecy around fake or altered guitars, and the shifty dealers, is being increasingly exposed on this forum. Seeing "names named" is a very welcome development, let's keep it going. Thanks to all the contributors who are shining light into the dark corners.

  2. #2

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    As someone who got burned on their first vintage acquisition, I support this development wholeheartedly.

  3. #3
    Les Paul Forum Member jimmi's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Agree. Shine the light of truth and watch the vermin scramble.

  4. #4
    Les Paul Forum Member Groover's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    His Majesty is like Bats piss!

  5. #5
    Les Paul Forum Member kharrison's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    So is this the place to name the dealer that screwed me in a trade that cost me a '69 GT?

  6. #6
    loufed52
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    If you have proof, or it's public knowledge, there is no reason to fear naming a crooked dealer.
    I've bought things that were not as they should be, but the dealers made good on them, which is what you would expect from reputable dealers.
    If they didn't- expose them.
    How else can you stop them short of criminal/legal action?

  7. #7

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by kharrison View Post
    So is this the place to name the dealer that screwed me in a trade that cost me a '69 GT?
    No, that would be the Sunburst Pub
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  8. #8
    Les Paul Forum Member mbowen's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Hi guys just make sure it can be proven and you have proof or a lawsuit could follow.Just my opinion but i have been there years ago.Thanks Mike B.

  9. #9
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Fact and not venim would be the rule.

  10. #10
    Les Paul Forum Member Pat Boyack's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    Just an observation that I think it's a very positive move on the forum that the veil of secrecy around fake or altered guitars, and the shifty dealers, is being increasingly exposed on this forum. Seeing "names named" is a very welcome development, let's keep it going. Thanks to all the contributors who are shining light into the dark corners.
    I agree 100%, ..... .......but I have seen so many facts and lies get intermingled on the Internet in general that I think extreme caution should be practiced and hard facts presented.

  11. #11
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Agreed, and we've seen a welcome trend in that direction.

  12. #12
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Groover View Post
    His Majesty is like Bats piss!
    I... I merely meant, Your Majesty, that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.

  13. #13

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    lets start at the top & work down,
    honored to be the first with a legitimate & provable complaint, everything is fact, I have no worries or concerns about any incoming, already been there, after all, if anyone can afford litigation it would be this crew!

    2003 I attended the Sotheby's john Entwistle sale, I bought 18 guitars, paid via bank transfer, one of the lots was Johns 1958 Gibson Flying V

    they shipped it, on arrival it was proved to be what those in the trade call a "lash up" ( it was possible for a pre sale viewing but only from 12 feet away), anyway, polite messages sent, ignored, further communication sent, ignored, legal communication sent, a response at last, fast forward to 2005 , I have a settlement offer, full refund but no shipping refund, I decline, eventually settlement in full, it only took 3 years & $275k
    hope this is what this thread is about
    phil winfield
    maverick music

  14. #14
    Les Paul Forum Member moonweasel's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by kharrison View Post
    So is this the place to name the dealer that screwed me in a trade that cost me a '69 GT?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogswell View Post
    No, that would be the Sunburst Pub


  15. #15
    Les Paul Forum Member Big Al's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    Just an observation that I think it's a very positive move on the forum that the veil of secrecy around fake or altered guitars, and the shifty dealers, is being increasingly exposed on this forum. Seeing "names named" is a very welcome development, let's keep it going. Thanks to all the contributors who are shining light into the dark corners.
    That's true, fo' sho'. Banker, I'd personaly single you out for kudo's in helping me learn a lot about faked Marshalls.
    The older I get, the better I was.

  16. #16

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mavmus View Post
    lets start at the top & work down,
    honored to be the first with a legitimate & provable complaint, everything is fact, I have no worries or concerns about any incoming, already been there, after all, if anyone can afford litigation it would be this crew!

    2003 I attended the Sotheby's john Entwistle sale, I bought 18 guitars, paid via bank transfer, one of the lots was Johns 1958 Gibson Flying V

    they shipped it, on arrival it was proved to be what those in the trade call a "lash up" ( it was possible for a pre sale viewing but only from 12 feet away), anyway, polite messages sent, ignored, further communication sent, ignored, legal communication sent, a response at last, fast forward to 2005 , I have a settlement offer, full refund but no shipping refund, I decline, eventually settlement in full, it only took 3 years & $275k
    hope this is what this thread is about
    Who authenticated it for Sotheby's and who did JE buy it from?

    The tells on a Korina V are a closely guarded secret and you wouldn't have known from 12 feet away.

    Most folk wouldn't know from 12 inches away.

  17. #17

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by moonweasel View Post
    lol
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member Groover's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    I... I merely meant, Your Majesty, that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.
    One of Whistlers...........

  19. #19
    Les Paul Forum Member ourmaninthenorth's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    As long as it becomes a thread where axes have already been ground, a sub judice type of narrative will get nobody anywhere.

    As to facts, what might they be? As Shostakovich famously stated ... "there is nothing more unreliable than an eyewitness account" .


  20. #20
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    Who authenticated it for Sotheby's and who did JE buy it from?
    They're the pertinent questions.

  21. #21

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...




  22. #22

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Googling that V's serial reveals... that V has since disappeared into oblivion.
    Probably a good thing... hopefully it never shows up again.

  23. #23
    Les Paul Forum Member JBLPplayer's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    It is important to also know the tell tale signs of Skullduggery. Split tops, Heel joints, top carves of both real with "issues" and all out fakes. The Romans had a two word saying for it. Caveat Emptor. As a buyer you have to do the due dilligence yourself first then buy only from trusted sources that you yourself feel comfortable with. English guys with a P as the first letter in their name might be a good place not to start if say in the market for a burst or Marshall combo. Just saying, you only get burned if you play with fire.
    ( that's a decent song title ...)
    Joe B

  24. #24

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    They're the pertinent questions.
    That no-one is answering

  25. #25
    Les Paul Forum Member moonweasel's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    Just saying, you only get burned if you play with fire.
    ( that's a decent song title ...)
    Joe B
    Or...

    You only get burned if you play with women.

  26. #26
    Les Paul Forum Member moonweasel's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    One of the reasons I wrote my website was to combat people calling all sorts of guitars "1968 Les Pauls". My guitar came to me through an act of kindness, so why not pay it back? I have gotten "thank you" emails from people in Malaysia and dozens of other countries. It's nice to help people in the struggle against "evil doers".

  27. #27
    Les Paul Forum Member Red Baron's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Late 60's LP's are misrepresented more than bursts, often blatantly by vintage dealers who should know better ...if in doubt all they need to do is search and study Stephen's site, but I think some would prefer to rely on 'confusion' because it's a convenient (and profitable) excuse...

  28. #28
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    It is important to also know the tell tale signs of Skullduggery. Split tops, Heel joints, top carves of both real with "issues" and all out fakes. The Romans had a two word saying for it. Caveat Emptor. As a buyer you have to do the due dilligence yourself first then buy only from trusted sources that you yourself feel comfortable with. English guys with a P as the first letter in their name might be a good place not to start if say in the market for a burst or Marshall combo. Just saying, you only get burned if you play with fire.
    ( that's a decent song title ...)
    Joe B
    There are museum curators and art collectors who have been fooled

    http://www.artsandartists.org/exhibi...ttodeceive.php

    investigative reporters who have been fooled (Hitler diaries, anyone?)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries,

    vintage guitar experts who have been fooled and so on. Your advice to "know the telltale signs" is great but the good forgers know those as well and how to avoid them. Buying from trusted sources can mean a lot of things, but sometimes it only means that you can trust that there are no intentions of fraud. Due diligence is great but it only goes so far. Provenance may still your best bet but is no guarantee either. When you buy a high dollar vintage guitar you are playing with fire......always. Just my opinion, off course.

  29. #29
    Les Paul Forum Member surfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    English guys with a P as the first letter in their name might be a good place not to start if say in the market for a burst or Marshall combo.
    That's very true. This is why when that Page-y dude offered to sell his #1 for $3k I indignantly refused....

  30. #30
    Les Paul Forum Member JBLPplayer's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by yeti View Post
    There are museum curators and art collectors who have been fooled

    http://www.artsandartists.org/exhibi...ttodeceive.php

    investigative reporters who have been fooled (Hitler diaries, anyone?)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Diaries,

    vintage guitar experts who have been fooled and so on. Your advice to "know the telltale signs" is great but the good forgers know those as well and how to avoid them. Buying from trusted sources can mean a lot of things, but sometimes it only means that you can trust that there are no intentions of fraud. Due diligence is great but it only goes so far. Provenance may still your best bet but is no guarantee either. When you buy a high dollar vintage guitar you are playing with fire......always. Just my opinion, off course.
    If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers. If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession. That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness. Use your eyes and trust your gut that or consult the Yeti guide to vintage guitars and disregard anything I have to say. Cause I've never done the dance and am a mere outsider looking in wannabe hobbyist


    Joe B

  31. #31

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers. If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession. That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness.

    Joe B


    Spot on and well said.

    I bought a 50's Gibson Les Paul from a very well respected guitar guy that I inspected briefly and later realised the tuner holes had been plugged and re-drilled from having had Grovers installed. The work had been expertly disguised and only showed up under backlight. I had to humbly call the guy up and apologise saying I had made a mistake and told him to turn around and drive back with the money. He did. Thankfully. Lesson learned.

  32. #32
    Les Paul Forum Member madformac's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers. If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession. That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness.


    Joe B
    Agreed. Also pays to do your homework as a buyer. If you are spending good money, particularly Burst money for instance, then you don't want to go find the nearest vintage dealer without checking who you are dealing with properly. Not unless you go into the sale knowing you can afford to lose the money if it all goes wrong, which is a very careless attitude.

    As always stated, buy the seller not the instrument.

    It is also worth pointing out there are many sellers that have fantastic integrity and experience and it's not a complete piranha club out there. Guys like Gary Winterflood, Joe Ganzler, TW and others I would trust without question.

  33. #33
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    A forum member who lives in the North West of the Uk has bought at least one very expensive vintage guitar from a particular ebay seller, which turned out to be not as described. He has had some assistance from knowledgeable forum members and I hope that at some point we will hear about a satisfactory outcome. A member of the other forum posted a NGD thread showing a '54 GT from the same seller. The buyer must have been stunned to see the replies pointing out some rather alarming issues.

    It is a tragedy that - to date - we, the people who read these posts, have not yet thought of a way to stop a seller from reposting such guitars on ebay with the same description after (presumably) agreeing to take them back.
    Due dilligence is a good thing, and is good advice. But at some point in the near future, another poor soul is going to find this forum, and then join the forum, after buying one of these guitars.
    There must be an answer - and the answer seems to lie somewhere in the following area. Putting together - The knowledge of the online community.....and ebay. I don't know enough about ebay to guess what the options might be but I do know that if the seller decided to change his ID and then reposted the guitars, 20 people who are reading this thread would immediately recognize the problem guitar/guitars.
    Last edited by Skipped; 02-13-14 at 07:42 AM.

  34. #34
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Skipped View Post
    A member of the other forum posted a NGD thread showing a '54 GT from the same seller. The buyer must have been stunned to see the the replies pointing out some rather alarming issues.

    ...at some point in the near future, another poor soul is going to find this forum, and then join the forum, after buying one of these guitars.
    Well put!

    Great thread, thanks John!

  35. #35
    yeti
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    If you have handled enough real guitars the fire becomes smoldering ambers.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    If you are vintage guitar dealer and get fooled by a fake for more than 12 hours, you should try another profession.
    If that became the benchmark we'd be looking at a lot of jobseekers with non-transferable job skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    That should be your professional obligation to do the due diligence or take the guitar back if sold with the utmost humbleness.
    Agreed 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    ... that or consult the Yeti guide to vintage guitars
    I wouldn't recommend it
    but since you asked, my guide is to buy the guitar, nothing else. If the guitar is worth the price as an instrument then none of this stuff matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBLPplayer View Post
    ... and disregard anything I have to say. Cause I've never done the dance and am a mere outsider looking in wannabe hobbyist


    Joe B
    your words, not mine, Joe. I'd never advise anybody to disregard anything.

    FWIW, I know a guy who sold over 5,000 vintage guitars, wrote articles on that stuff for GP, VG mag and other and I have discussed this very issue many times. Even the best, most experienced eyes and hands get fooled every once in a while.

  36. #36
    All Access/Backstage Pass Wilko's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    There's a reason Ganzler won't verify Fenders.

  37. #37

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilko View Post
    There's a reason Ganzler won't verify Fenders.
    I'd imagine with his fees it's not cost effective for the potential buyer.

  38. #38
    Banker
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by landminelenny View Post
    I'd imagine with his fees it's not cost effective for the potential buyer.
    I spent a reasonable amount of money with Joe on a guitar, sight unseen, deal done with a single 5 minute phone call.

    He did everything that would be expected and more, was extremely up front about every single detail and baby walked it to my door. Most professional deal guitar purchase I've been part of.

    My only complaint was that I paid for lunch, and that was in the pre-skinny Joe days.

  39. #39

    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banker View Post
    I spent a reasonable amount of money with Joe on a guitar, sight unseen, deal done with a single 5 minute phone call.

    He did everything that would be expected and more, was extremely up front about every single detail and baby walked it to my door. Most professional deal guitar purchase I've been part of.

    My only complaint was that I paid for lunch, and that was in the pre-skinny Joe days.
    Aah, but still, you had his company! I enjoyed Joe's company in an awful hotel sports bar one year at Dallas. He was a good sport but not sure he understood all of my humour. He even wore long trousers. Top bloke

  40. #40
    Les Paul Forum Member Beano Geno's Avatar
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    Re: Exposing the "evil doers"...

    So has Joe gotten out of the vintage guitar business? or just the LPF?

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