• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Woody tone captured on a Historic?

Minibucker

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Messages
6,372
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, just wanted to point out to the OP that the clips were not done with a Historic.
No prob at all, and you make a good point. there are definitely differences that I've heard in straight comparisons.

I do agree with you to an extent. You can get close, lets say 95%, for the sake of argument, but that extra 5% I have not heard in a Historic.

Nevertheless, I love the tone Ed's getting in those clips.

cheers,
dre

It always seems to me that new instruments/pickups/amps all sound a bit 'stiff' when new, especially in direct comparisons. In a lot of ways, I might put it even more than 5% as I think that last bit is where the 'feedback' really blooms, if that makes any sense. But I don't think it's 'unapproachable' with new instruments. Maybe you have to work a little harder at it....as if we didn't have to work hard enough to sound like Duane, right?
 

Minibucker

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2003
Messages
6,372
By the way, there's a Vid/Thread I posted in the Vintage section of Vince Gill playing Duane's Goldtop at a gig in Macon, GA. Although I'm not crazy about the song, he gets some real nice sounds out of it during the solo.
 

TM1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
8,349
Don, Real American big bottle 6CA7 power tubes didn't exist until 1970 or a little later so Duane could have only used them for about a year before he died. Anything else prior labeled as a 6CA7 would still be a European tube of some kind.

Mark; Hi! Yes, I'm well aware of that. I was going by what Joe Dan and Reddog have told me years ago. Basically what the story is was that they needed some output tubes for Duane's amps and were sold those at an electronics shop. Duane liked them and insisted that Joe Dan get those next time they needed to retube his amps.
Here's another tid bit for everyone.. In the early days their monitors weren't very good. So what the guys would do would be to setup one of Berry's bass cabs between Duane and Gregg's rigs and one of Dickey's next to Duane's and one of Duane's next to Berry's rig. Now this is the early, early days like '69 & part of 1970. Around Summer of '70 they went to the classic line-up that we normally see. But these behind the band setups are from '69 with the open back Marshall cabs. The open backs spread out the sound especially if there's a wall behind them. They use to experiment a lot in those early days with cabs & setups to see what worked so everyone could hear.
 

bluesforstevie

New member
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
12,771
Mark; Hi! Yes, I'm well aware of that. I was going by what Joe Dan and Reddog have told me years ago. Basically what the story is was that they needed some output tubes for Duane's amps and were sold those at an electronics shop. Duane liked them and insisted that Joe Dan get those next time they needed to retube his amps.
Here's another tid bit for everyone.. In the early days their monitors weren't very good. So what the guys would do would be to setup one of Berry's bass cabs between Duane and Gregg's rigs and one of Dickey's next to Duane's and one of Duane's next to Berry's rig. Now this is the early, early days like '69 & part of 1970. Around Summer of '70 they went to the classic line-up that we normally see. But these behind the band setups are from '69 with the open back Marshall cabs. The open backs spread out the sound especially if there's a wall behind them. They use to experiment a lot in those early days with cabs & setups to see what worked so everyone could hear.

Yeah, I have never seen any pics of said Cerwin Vegas, but I have seen pics of Duane with JBL's. I have also seen one of Duanes heads at Silver Strings Music in St. Louis and it had Mullard EL34's in it I am pretty pos. Certainly not big bottled Sylvania's which I don't think were utilized until mid to late 70's.
 

electricwally

Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
123
Here's another tid bit for everyone.. In the early days their monitors weren't very good. So what the guys would do would be to setup one of Berry's bass cabs between Duane and Gregg's rigs and one of Dickey's next to Duane's and one of Duane's next to Berry's rig. Now this is the early, early days like '69 & part of 1970. Around Summer of '70 they went to the classic line-up that we normally see. But these behind the band setups are from '69 with the open back Marshall cabs. The open backs spread out the sound especially if there's a wall behind them. They use to experiment a lot in those early days with cabs & setups to see what worked so everyone could hear.

TM1, yes, you can clearly see that in the backline photo. Bass cabs were spread out. Love looking at that Twin Reverb, it's already missing its upper back tube protector panel. Unless it was removed on purpose. I believe that was a silverface twin.
 

Ad_02Std

Active member
Joined
Apr 12, 2005
Messages
5,055
Sounds like a picking thing to me. I think he's picking somewhere over the neck pickup (edit: he's almost right up to the fretboard there) and happens to hit a pinched harmonic with the back of his thumb on that low note (D string, 10th fret) that rings out equally in both the higher and original register.

His rig does really brings out those harmonics, but without the picking technique you're not going to find that note.
 

Uncle Gary

Active member
Joined
Oct 15, 2006
Messages
2,431
I strongly suspect that if Duane were here, he'd find this discussion amusing to say the least. He probably thought that "honk" note was a flub.
 

mistersnappy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
7,321
Here's another tid bit for everyone.. In the early days their monitors weren't very good. So what the guys would do would be to setup one of Berry's bass cabs between Duane and Gregg's rigs and one of Dickey's next to Duane's and one of Duane's next to Berry's rig. Now this is the early, early days like '69 & part of 1970. Around Summer of '70 they went to the classic line-up that we normally see. But these behind the band setups are from '69 with the open back Marshall cabs. The open backs spread out the sound especially if there's a wall behind them. They use to experiment a lot in those early days with cabs & setups to see what worked so everyone could hear.

Yes! Also, the Leslies: One behind Gregg and another on stage left by Butch. Look on the inside of Anthology Vol. 2. :dude: Course, thats '71...
That '71 set up is sick. They'd found a classic setup fo' sho'.
 

steve(UK)

New member
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
972
Like guys on here, I've been fascinated with Duane's tone on that album for 40 years. It has been my 'de facto' tone to aim for (never got it!). I could talk for days on the subject (most of it nonsense but I just love everything about it!).

One thing I can say having read extensively on the subject, nothing was by accident. Duane was meticulous to the last in achieving his tone. We're talking swapping valves in his amp, swapping his amp for another one the 'same' because it was slightly better, that kind of thing.

Regarding his speakers, it seems he was looking for a tone that was midway between Dickey's Fender driven JBL D-120s with their bright, sweet metalic ring, and the classic Marshall/Celestion 4x12 sound. So, as already described, he took a Marshall 4x12 cab, partially opened up the back (broader, more open sound with slightly less thump), and he fitted Cerwin Vega ER123 speakers. These - again, are like a cross between an ali coned JBL and a Celestion. And that's the sound we're talking about. It seems he preferred the crunchier sound of the overdriven Marshall to the cleaner Fender amp. Also, when pushed hard, EL output valves tend to compress a little in the bass (improving lead clarity) and become rich in sweet harmonics in the mid range. 6L6 type valves tend not to break up so much (less crunchy) and also go somewhat flubby in the bass.

The nearest I ever got was using a Marshall 1987 (50W) amp (like Duane's) with a Marshall 4x12 with GH30s and by using a graphic to peak the mid range kinda like a wah in the mid range position but not so pronounced.

But saying all that, Dickey's sound on his solos is wonderful too. So, add the two together and you have blues lead guitar jousting the likes of which no two players have ever achieved since - in my opinion.

Did someone say there was a copy of that Cerwin Vega speaker being made? If not on here, I seem to recall that was the case.

Edit: I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that only two of the Celestions were changed for Cerwin Vegas in Duane's cab. All this stuff is on the net if you trawl long enough and hard enough. Like I did years ago to find it. And I think some of it came from an Allman's roadie/tech of the time.

2nd Edit: a quick search found this: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-960042.html
 
Last edited:

Mitchell

New member
Joined
Feb 20, 2002
Messages
3,012
I don't know what gear "Warren" was using completely, but the solo he does on "Towering Fool" off the "DOSE" album is a PEACH in both sound and technic, etc.
I got to see it live through the "Soldano" on that tour and it looked like a Historic...... :dude:
 

electricwally

Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
123
Steve, lots of great info. Thank you. It would be interesting if someone could amass all the components of Duane's rig that you and others have listed combined with a historic LP and see if that woody/throaty/dry/honk/harmonica-like/bark could be duplicated (to some extent).

Clearly Duane's touch was a critical component (obviously) that must be taken into consideration. Thus if the quest is even achievable is another question. Just a thought.

The "honk" on that mentioned note is something I've always looked forward to hearing when spinning the Fillmore East album over the many decades.

I remember back in the day I wanted that "honk" sound so bad I figured that I needed an original pair of 1950's PAF pickups in my Les Paul. I eventually "signed-on" to the "Guitar Trader '59 Flametop" that was offered by the owner of "Guitar Trader" in Red Bank, NJ USA (owner was Dave Deforrest). I was one of the "earliest" depositors and was guaranteed original 1950's PAF pickups in my reissue'59 burst as part of the offer. I eventually backed-out of the deal. It is my most painful "lost guitar story" and we all have a few. I lived about a half hour's drive from his store. Guitar Trader was my favorite (and always will be) "guitar only" store.
 

electricwally

Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
123
Steve, had the Jensen speakers in my blackface twin reconed by Weber years ago. Spoke to "Ted" on the phone quite a few times. What a wonderful guy. May he rest in peace.
 

steve(UK)

New member
Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
972
Steve, lots of great info. Thank you. It would be interesting if someone could amass all the components of Duane's rig that you and others have listed combined with a historic LP and see if that woody/throaty/dry/honk/harmonica-like/bark could be duplicated (to some extent).

Clearly Duane's touch was a critical component (obviously) that must be taken into consideration. Thus if the quest is even achievable is another question. Just a thought.

The "honk" on that mentioned note is something I've always looked forward to hearing when spinning the Fillmore East album over the many decades.

I remember back in the day I wanted that "honk" sound so bad I figured that I needed an original pair of 1950's PAF pickups in my Les Paul. I eventually "signed-on" to the "Guitar Trader '59 Flametop" that was offered by the owner of "Guitar Trader" in Red Bank, NJ USA (owner was Dave Deforrest). I was one of the "earliest" depositors and was guaranteed original 1950's PAF pickups in my reissue'59 burst as part of the offer. I eventually backed-out of the deal. It is my most painful "lost guitar story" and we all have a few. I lived about a half hour's drive from his store. Guitar Trader was my favorite (and always will be) "guitar only" store.

Oh.. nostalgia.. In the 70s I used to have the Guitar Trader flyer sent to me in England. There were bursts for what, $1200? I could never afford one then and of course now, the shining star is even further from my outstretched fingers..

But back to practicalities. There are many links in Duane's 'tone chain'. All of them count. But singularly, if you use a good graphic (not a toy 5 band one) and apply boost around 800Hz, it will give you a nasal honk. And THAT goes a long way to achieving Duane's - and indeed many of the 70s blues/rock players - tone. Note, of course Duane didn't use a graphic, this is a kinda short cut to getting that tone. I suspect, with Duane's rig, there was a lot of mid boost around the 800hz region going on in each element (the guitar, amp, speakers, tone settings etc), that added together gave that mid boosted, honky, woody tone. It's just so organic and expressive. Nirvana..
 

electricwally

Member
Joined
May 15, 2013
Messages
123
It is well documented that Duane wrapped his strings around and over the top of the stop tailpiece. I believe doing so also changed the string angle from tailpiece to bridge. Any thoughts if this contributed to his tone or simply made the strings easier to bend?

Edit: I did read that Duane wrapped his strings over the tailpiece to send more of the string vibration to the body. I have a few old copies of "Guitar Player" magazine and believe this is where I read this claim. Still looking. Not sure just how much of the string actually vibrates over the tailpiece when installed in this fashion. I also saw a picture of Duane playing his SG with the strings installed the standard way (through the tailpiece as normal).
9029218226_edc94521e8_c.jpg
 
Last edited:
Top