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  1. #81
    Les Paul Forum Member Hardrockmapletop's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Kim's removed the filler from the gouge.
    It's DEEP!
    2.19mm deep!
    Still weighing up the options.

  2. #82
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Stinger...

  3. #83
    Les Paul Forum Member Hardrockmapletop's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Can't do it Eric.
    I'd personally prefer to see a little red pigment shot behind the number.
    Kim feels that the holly needs replacing as it was previously sanded thin, and also damaged when it was drilled for Schaller tuners.
    The option could be there to thin the top end of the headstock, while still keeping it within specs, which could remove at least a little of the damage.

    Sct13.....
    Wonder if that Burst headstock was the Koss Burst's missing headstock?

  4. #84
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Like Eric said, buy a trashed Junior or Special to remove the real serial# and make up one for the JR/Special to be sold. I say get an actual Gibson serial# for the Burst' if Kim can restore the dug out surface properly and sell the doner LP with a created #, there are no sites keeping lists of JR's and Special's.

  5. #85
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    I'm with Eric... stinger all the way. Historically accurate. Uncommon. Sexy as hell.

    Either way great thread.

  6. #86
    Les Paul Forum Member Ryan Givhan's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardrockmapletop View Post
    Kim's removed the filler from the gouge.
    It's DEEP!
    2.19mm deep!
    Still weighing up the options.
    someone definitely didnt want anyone to be able to read that serial # . . . yikes. there has to be a story to this one. does anyone know it. if you do, do you want to tell it?

  7. #87
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Givhan View Post
    someone definitely didnt want anyone to be able to read that serial # . . . yikes. there has to be a story to this one. does anyone know it. if you do, do you want to tell it?
    BEANO!!!

  8. #88
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardrockmapletop View Post
    Can't do it Eric.
    I'd personally prefer to see a little red pigment shot behind the number.
    Kim feels that the holly needs replacing as it was previously sanded thin, and also damaged when it was drilled for Schaller tuners.
    The option could be there to thin the top end of the headstock, while still keeping it within specs, which could remove at least a little of the damage.

    Sct13.....
    Wonder if that Burst headstock was the Koss Burst's missing headstock?
    A stinger would also allow you to hide the holes from the Schallers. You would end up with a total factory look. This is how I would go.

  9. #89
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Stinger and real serial# from a donner!

  10. #90
    Les Paul Forum Member Ryan Givhan's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by hoss View Post
    BEANO!!!
    im pretty sure you're right.

  11. #91
    Les Paul Forum Member MapleFlame's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    I personally don't see the big deal on the serial number. There's enough info on this guitar by google and this forum that it won't be mis-diagnosed. Most of the guys in the know have great memories. Making too much out of this.
    Top carves are sexy

  12. #92
    Les Paul Forum Member 27sauce's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by MapleFlame View Post
    I personally don't see the big deal on the serial number. There's enough info on this guitar by google and this forum that it won't be mis-diagnosed. Most of the guys in the know have great memories. Making too much out of this.
    I feel the same, this guitar will not fade in to obscurity. It is what it is.
    Marc

  13. #93
    Les Paul Forum Member PHILBERT's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Stingers are not my cup of tea either. That Dracula look widows peak thing is butt-ugly.
    Phil http://philbert.lh.net/cool.gif

    "Sometimes life is a beach."

    http://youtu.be/ttqhJy9UA9Q

    (warning: 1080P full screen HD content with wide stereo sound. High speed connection advised.)

    http://youtu.be/ybDROZZphAQ

  14. #94
    Les Paul Forum Member Hardrockmapletop's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by MapleFlame View Post
    I personally don't see the big deal on the serial number. There's enough info on this guitar by google and this forum that it won't be mis-diagnosed. Most of the guys in the know have great memories. Making too much out of this.
    Couldn't agree more MapleFlame.
    I's a documented guitar, so who cares what the number is.

  15. #95
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Seems to me, if you are going to the expense and trouble to do it....do it right.

    If there is ANY guitar that needs those extra hyper details, it's this beast.

    Some future owner will thank you.

  16. #96
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by MapleFlame View Post
    I personally don't see the big deal on the serial number. There's enough info on this guitar by google and this forum that it won't be mis-diagnosed. Most of the guys in the know have great memories. Making too much out of this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardrockmapletop View Post
    Couldn't agree more MapleFlame.
    I's a documented guitar, so who cares what the number is.
    There are many Burst buyers who don't come here.

    As for who cares what the number is, the person that already has the legitimate Gibson with the number you use will care.
    And those who don't like to see guitar buyers fraudulently taken advantage will also care.
    I fall into the latter category. I hope others do also.
    Pauls to the walls!

    Hüter der Flammen!

    PLEASE SUPPORT www.burstserial.com !!
    Click here: www.burstserial.com

  17. #97
    Les Paul Forum Member Greco's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    I think I would be leaning towards a stinger over the prospect of removing wood, definitely. I guess with this guitar either you have to live with a stinger or filled holes as a best case scenario.

    For me, I can't see how those holes and the gouge can be disappeared well enough for my tastes without a stinger. I would almost be inclined to keep the holes over trying to cover them up with filler and leave the serial number scratched out. I'm sure Kim probably has some tricks up his sleeve though. Keep the updates coming!

  18. #98
    Les Paul Forum Member JJ Blair's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    If Kim is really talented, which I know he is, he could lay in a piece of mahogany veneer into the gouge spot and smooth it out. An x-acto knife, some time, patience, and grain filler, you'd be surprised how good it will look, if you can't stomach a stinger. Mahogany is very forgiving in that way.

  19. #99
    Les Paul Forum Member kthesheep's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by JJ Blair View Post
    If Kim is really talented, which I know he is, he could lay in a piece of mahogany veneer into the gouge spot and smooth it out. An x-acto knife, some time, patience, and grain filler, you'd be surprised how good it will look, if you can't stomach a stinger. Mahogany is very forgiving in that way.
    After looking at the situation. That's the same solution we came up with also.
    It's going to be there no matter what. So a clean Mahogany plug is probable the best bet.

    Kim


  20. #100
    Les Paul Forum Member Hardrockmapletop's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Well, this is the reason I'm here!
    To get informed opinions on the best route to take, so thanks
    everyone for all the input.

    Looking at the long term picture, it could be that the best thing is for me to buy the Melody Maker.
    It has a serial number (0 0975) that suits the neck profile, the thing already has a major heal break, and can be had for $1,000.
    It's already had a few original parts swapped out for repros, and one would only have to slightly relic one digit of it's serial number to make it semi-illegible, but an otherwise legit early '60 number.
    Makes sense to grab it, right?
    If we were trying to make the Burst look like 100% original finish, it would make sense to NOT fill the Schaller tuner holes and do everything possible to repair the gouge.
    Fact is, it's a refin, and will always be documented as a refin.
    Having said that, it would be nice to see the gouge disappear!
    Maybe you can "feather" a piece of mahogany in Kim, rather than a "plug" as such.
    The pressure is on now! Hehe!
    Last edited by Hardrockmapletop; 08-13-12 at 09:42 PM.

  21. #101
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Smart move. Let the games begin....

  22. #102

    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Mick R's '59 (from Bad Company) 'burst had the same thing done from a '59 Jr... Remember it was for sale at solidbodyguitar.com Had some serious flame , but the serial # was inlayed like mentioned from a '59 Jr. , it looked well done , but a huge devaluation none the less...

  23. #103
    Les Paul Forum Member The Greek's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardrockmapletop View Post
    It has a serial number (0 0975) that suits the neck profile, the thing already has a major heal break, and can be had for $1,000.

    Makes sense to grab it, right?
    If you really want a S/N on it,I think this is the best way to go.

  24. #104
    Les Paul Forum Member MapleFlame's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by TW59 View Post
    There are many Burst buyers who don't come here.

    As for who cares what the number is, the person that already has the legitimate Gibson with the number you use will care.
    And those who don't like to see guitar buyers fraudulently taken advantage will also care.
    I fall into the latter category. I hope others do also.
    It's fraud to misrepresent a replica I agree, but this is a real Burst and even if it had the same serial number of another Burst, it's still a refin and is very well documented. This is a totally different animal. I don't agree do destroy a Melody Maker even more just to get the serial number off. Why is that better than just using a made up number. If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst. Just because the melody maker is a cheapo doesn't make it right to steal that too.
    Top carves are sexy

  25. #105
    Les Paul Forum Co-Owner Tom Wittrock's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by MapleFlame View Post
    I don't agree do destroy a Melody Maker even more just to get the serial number off. Why is that better than just using a made up number. If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst. Just because the melody maker is a cheapo doesn't make it right to steal that too.
    I have to agree.
    Pauls to the walls!

    Hüter der Flammen!

    PLEASE SUPPORT www.burstserial.com !!
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  26. #106
    yeti
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by MapleFlame View Post
    It's fraud to misrepresent a replica I agree, but this is a real Burst and even if it had the same serial number of another Burst, it's still a refin and is very well documented. This is a totally different animal. I don't agree do destroy a Melody Maker even more just to get the serial number off. Why is that better than just using a made up number. If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst. Just because the melody maker is a cheapo doesn't make it right to steal that too.
    Maybe it's just me but in my book it's fraud to tamper with the serial number, period. That number isn't there anymore, the damage is done. everything else is just creating an illusion and therefore not a good idea in the long term since you never know where the guitar will end up. If it was my guitar I'd leave it blank until such time that I can trace back the original number.
    Unfortunately that might open another can of worms regarding the possibility of theft and recovery of stolen goods so just leave it alone.
    Of course this is just my unsolicited opinion so pay no attention.

    yeah, and leave that MM alone!

  27. #107
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    The reason the guitar is being restored now is because it was not done to perfection the last time.

    If that gets sold then it has the same number as the Burst.
    You strip the number off the Melody Maker...hence the name "donor" guitar. It gave its life so that another may live.

    everything else is just creating an illusion and therefore not a good idea in the long term since you never know where the guitar will end up.
    Based on this logic, you could also make the case that restoring the guitar to perfection is creating an "illusion."
    Last edited by abalonevintage; 08-13-12 at 10:43 PM.

  28. #108
    Les Paul Forum Member Greco's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    I'm sorry but who-frikkin-cares about all this preserving it for future generations crap? Enjoy your guitar and make sure they remember to fire it out of the cannon along with your ashes once you've kicked the bucket. The yoof of today probably won't be able to tell this from an Epiphone anyway!

  29. #109
    Les Paul Forum Member alk-3's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by kthesheep View Post
    After looking at the situation. That's the same solution we came up with also.
    It's going to be there no matter what. So a clean Mahogany plug is probable the best bet.

  30. #110
    yeti
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Greco View Post
    I'm sorry but who-frikkin-cares about all this preserving it for future generations crap? Enjoy your guitar and make sure they remember to fire it out of the cannon along with your ashes once you've kicked the bucket. The yoof of today probably won't be able to tell this from an Epiphone anyway!
    You know, after thinking about it I think you're right

  31. #111
    yeti
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by abalonevintage View Post
    Based on this logic, you could also make the case that restoring the guitar to perfection is creating an "illusion."
    I disagree as long as the restoration is done correctly. You should restore it to original specs without misstating it's provenance and history. Only put back what you know was there.
    What about adding a slightly modified donor "bill of sale" or other case candy? How about some photoshopped pics of the "original owner" gigging with it back in the day? If you have a donor-polaroid everything will be fine, correct?
    Fine pieces of art are being restored all the time but I don't think any serious restorer would consider putting a lost signature or date back or something of that magnitude especially if the name and date are unknown.

    Again, just my opinion and in the end the owner should do as he pleases, it's only a guitar.

  32. #112
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    There are so many refinished Bursts, that don't have a serial#. Jimmy Page's for example.
    Why not leave it blank?

  33. #113
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Because Jimmy Pages guitar will be worth 5 to 10 times as much as other 59 Burdt's because of it's past even if it had neck repairs, missing serial#, shaved neck, lost electronics, Etc. I think it's a question of what the owner needs done to feel good with the restoration. This guitar is not being done in secret, and who wouldn't be able to determine that the wood under the serial# has been plugged/veneered even if it gets a stinger. I can't believe anyone is not going to examine this guitar to the nines when considering a future purchase at the price it will command? I don't see this as a coverup to mislead future buyers, but I can understand how it could be sold that way to someone that didn't know what most of us do. It's not my guitar, so I'm OK with what ever is done if it doesn't involve defacing it!

  34. #114
    Les Paul Forum Member kerryboy's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Is anybody going to reveal the history of this guitar, or can you direct me to a link. I'm sort of fired up and would like to know more.

    For example, was the first refin done to disguise it?

    Bye the way, I liked it as it was, but I am sure it will look fantastic when it done again. This is going to be a great thread.

  35. #115
    Les Paul Forum Member Hardrockmapletop's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Hi Kerry.
    Here's some of the story, and a couple of photos prior to it's last refinish.

    From Steve Segal's Ebay auction.
    "This guitar has been consigned to me by a good friend and I have known it for the last 25 years. It is a transition sized neck 1960 flametop. The transition neck, as it is known, is not as large as a 58 or 59, but not nearly as small as the later "tomato soup colored" 60s that were known as "pencil necks". From what I have gathered or seen in my 40 years of collecting and buying and selling vintage guitars, transition neck 60s were made in the 0 1000 to 0 1500 serial # range. This particular guitar was refinished badly at one time and then later professionally refinished again as a restoration. Although the 1st refin was a bad one, the guitar was spared any other torture and the stripping or sanding of the guitar was actually quite goods in that very little wood was removed and the contours are all in great shape as evidenced in the pictures. All parts are correct including the PU surrounds. The pick guard is a cut P90 guard. Everything else is correct and original to the guitar. There is no serial # . The top on the guitar is the best I have ever seen on a 60 bar none. It is a 10 in coverage and a 10 in depth. A true 10 top that lights up strong from any angle. If this guitar had it's original finish, I would venture to say that a few known collectors would be fighting over it at $300K. It is quite spectacular as seen in the photos. It comes with a period correct brown case in nice condition."

    From correspondence I had with Don Lee, who confirmed the origins of the guitar.
    "The guitar was bought by 2 friends of mine in Montreal from an antique store/ pawn shop. They never told me exactly as they wanted to keep their hunting spots quiet.*One of the owners bought it outright afterwards. It has been over 10 years since i have seen the guitar after the owner had it refined by Brian*Monty. As discussed on the forum it has a crappy laquerish shellac finish on it. It had a transition neck from my memory. I would guess early to mid 60."

    And from Don's post on a previous thread about the ebay auction,
    "HI guys, I can add to the origins of the refin 60 being sold by JJB. The guitar was bought through an antique dealer if my memory serves me right. The guitar was bought by two friends of mine in Montreal (Circa 2001,2002?). When bought the guitar had a very bad refinish ala 70's hideous filthy tomato soup sunburst that did not show off the top. The owner had it redone to show off the spectacular top. The guitar has a transitional neck and had most of its original contours. The guitar is definitely an original topped guitar for what it's worth. Hope this adds something."

    more info from Steve,
    "Bought circa 1993 Don and the finish was a brushed on amber urethane that was so old and decrepit that it was almost opaque. The only way the owner knew that there was "some" flame under there was by the spot of half moon arm wear that was about 3/4" wide. When the guitar was finally stripped and refinished, everyone was blown away. - Steve Segal"

    and here's the pics from before the last refin...


  36. #116
    Les Paul Forum Member hoss's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    The famous Bathroom Burst

  37. #117
    Les Paul Forum Member surfreak's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Does it sound good?

  38. #118
    Les Paul Forum Member Ryan Givhan's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    no one know how or why the serial number was scooped out of the headstock?

  39. #119
    yeti
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Givhan View Post
    no one know how or why the serial number was scooped out of the headstock?
    Maybe because it was 0-666 or something
    In many cases serial numbers are removed because the person removing the number doesn't want the item to be traced. But sometimes the number is just removed during refinishing. That doesn't seem to be the reason here.
    There are instances where the number is missing due to a reneck or other headstock repair.

    ---edit---

    Just re-read my post and I just want to make absolutely clear that I'm not trying to raise any questions regarding ownership of this guitar or question the sellers' right to sell, etc. Many guitars, including the Burst in my Avatar are bought and sold legitimately despite having been stolen at some point.
    Last edited by yeti; 08-14-12 at 12:52 PM.

  40. #120
    Les Paul Forum Member Red Baron's Avatar
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    Re: 1960 Burst @ Historic Makeovers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardrockmapletop View Post
    It has a serial number (0 0975) that suits the neck profile, the thing already has a major heal break, and can be had for $1,000.
    If it were mine I doubt I'd be able to justify spending $1k for a serial number.

    Look at it from this angle - this thread will always be here for anyone to use for reference and I would assume that most buyers wanting to authenticate a 'stories' burst will likely do some research that will inevitably lead them to this thread. All of the info is here so IMO it doesn't need a serial number.

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