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  1. #1
    Les Paul Forum Member wizardmc's Avatar
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    Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Well, I'm always looking for good vintage speakers. These speakers work well and sound great. But what are they?
    With all the knowledge here, I wonder if someone can help decipher the codes.







  2. #2
    Les Paul Forum Member v-verb's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    i think those are the pre-Blues. Pretty nice speakers!!

    But I'll let the experts chime in

  3. #3
    Les Paul Forum Member bigtomrodney's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Those ran concurrently with the "blues" and are essentially the same. The blues were coloured that way for Vox. These are.the speakers in early JTM45 and Bluesbreaker cabs, the same as those thought to be in Clapton's amp. They're 15W.

    I'm not too hhot on cone codes so I couldn't tell you about the variant.

  4. #4
    yeti
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    I think Celestion reissued this model (1200 of them) for the Marshall 4x12 open back cabinets of the threehundred Offset JTM45 reissues Marshall made in the early 2000's. Great sounding cabinets.


  5. #5
    Les Paul Forum Member keef's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Cool find - those cones are Celestion cones.

    Is there no stamp on the gasket (cork ring)? If it is a date code, the BH stamp would indicate February 1963.

  6. #6
    Les Paul Forum Member Jeff West's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Don't confuse ROLA/Celestion B024/B025 with T650/T652, although they look quite similar. B025 (15/16 0hm) is a '50s design, early version of G12. It's the one that had to be beefed up in a few ways to generate the T530 blue and T652 (uncovered) silver (like v-verb said). According to Jim Elyea the B024 had aluminum coil, so be careful! I think they still may have made them into the '60s though. I'd also be interested in any gasket stampings on these. All B024s or B025s I've seen even late '50s had dates on manilla gaskets, and various RIC cones. I don't think I've seen or heard of "RCIC" before, anyone? Although I'd certainly guess it's original.
    Last edited by Jeff West; 12-06-11 at 08:59 AM.

  7. #7
    Les Paul Forum Member wizardmc's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Guys, these are the cabs they're in. One set is loaded with original T652s, the other with these B025s. These are all 15/16 ohm speakers, and the cabs are wired to 8 ohms.

    The B025s are not original to the cab. But I hate to remove vintage speakers from vintage cabs more than I have to. If that's what it takes, I'll unscrew one and try to get a picture of the gasket.



  8. #8
    Les Paul Forum Member Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Now thats a groovy rigg there...


    Opportunity knocks
    Karma hunts you down

  9. #9
    Les Paul Forum Member bigtomrodney's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff West View Post
    Don't confuse ROLA/Celestion B024/B025 with T651/T652, although they look quite similar.
    I stand corrected and will hopefully know better next time

  10. #10
    Les Paul Forum Member wizardmc's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    So, are these the speakers that are in the orignal Vox TV Front amps/cabs?

    Any other experts out there?

    I appreciate all the input so far. We're getting closer!

    If it helps, I am told there is "no surround treatment/no treatment of the surrounds."
    Last edited by wizardmc; 12-02-11 at 09:22 PM.

  11. #11
    Les Paul Forum Member skeletor's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizardmc View Post
    nice cabs! where did you find those beauties? look like early 65? Ive got a pair of those myself but all the original grill & covering are long gone. need to restore them somehow.

    do yours still have the leather handles on them?

    the T652 or T0652 are definitely the alnicos used by marshall.

  12. #12
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Thought I'd dig this up again as I like old Celestions and there are no pics able to be seen in the OP or elsewhere in the thread anymore.

    Rola G12 alnico(with the large screws on top) and from the late '50s..........I'm interested in these as they may be 12 or 15 watt?
    What do you guys reckon.

  13. #13
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldtop0 View Post
    Rola G12 alnico(with the large screws on top) and from the late '50s..........I'm interested in these as they may be 12 or 15 watt? What do you guys reckon.
    12w, they'll blow in an AC15.

    652's were 20w.
    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  14. #14
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    12w, they'll blow in an AC15.

    652's were 20w.

    I thought as much as I read on the BygoneTones site that the alnicos were updated/revised in '62 to a higher wattage by another 5w to 15-17 watts.
    I've got an old 74 1772 that's 12watts.

    But the T652s are capable of 20 watts you reckon.........that's something I didn't know and hadn't come across.

  15. #15

    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    My understanding is the B024 / B025 was 12 watts through the 1950's (as stated in the Celestion brochure). Then the vox blue / CT3757 came along and was supposedly upgraded to 15 watts but what parts changed exactly I don't know. I always thought the T652 was the same as the blue at 15 watts. They would have increased by 5w (to 20w) by late 67 when the voice coils were upgraded. Although I doubt the T652 was still being produced in late 67.

    Before the mid 1950's there seems to be other G12 models around such as P74, not sure what their power rating is.

    All I could find on those 50's speakers is here:

    http://www.bygonetones.com/1950s-cel...-speakers.html

    If anyone has more info or photos I'd be interested to learn more. This is a bit of a grey area. Few speakers turn up from that period.
    Last edited by Bygone_Tones; 05-06-19 at 02:27 PM.

  16. #16
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Thanks for the info.
    The 74 1772 I have is an outstanding speaker and works great in my PR 1x12.
    Took it to my speaker guy as it had an annoying grungey crunch sound(after the note) at higher volume, he said it had a loose dustcap, fixed it, and all good, perfect.
    For a 65 yr old speaker that's just amazing.

  17. #17
    Les Paul Forum Member Jeff West's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    FWIW, Jim Elyea says in the Vox book that ca. mid '59 Celestion engineers set out to increase the power handling of the B024 specifically for evolving guitar amps, ended up switching from aluminum wire VC that had been used previously on B024 to copper, also reinforced the braided leads to the terminals, reinforced the cone with 1/2" of some then-unusual doping, for 15W rating of the T530 in summer 1960 (pp. 268-69). They had also experimented with some other things, including non-paper VC former additions.

    Jeff

  18. #18
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff West View Post
    FWIW, Jim Elyea says in the Vox book that ca. mid '59 Celestion engineers set out to increase the power handling of the B024 specifically for evolving guitar amps, ended up switching from aluminum wire VC that had been used previously on B024 to copper, also reinforced the braided leads to the terminals, reinforced the cone with 1/2" of some then-unusual doping, for 15W rating of the T530 in summer 1960 (pp. 268-69). They had also experimented with some other things, including non-paper VC former additions.

    Jeff
    Thanks Jeff.
    It's interesting the information that comes to light. Vox favoured 8 ohm speakers for their amps and cabs from what I've read and can see, said the 8s had more treble response, yet Marshall used the T652 16 ohm.
    In '59 it was Cliff and The Shadows, Lonnie Donegan, Tommy Steele in the UK..........Celestion were keeping up with the game in '59 and from what unfolded/evolved with their speakers in the early to mid '60s.......well the rest is history isn't it.
    Were makers in the US 'doping' their speakers back then do you know.

  19. #19
    Les Paul Forum Member Jeff West's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Here's another tidbit for consideration: Jim E. maintains that the January 19, 1960 date given as the registration for the T530 "Azure Blue" is in error, it was entered wrong and was actually January 19, 1961, one year later. Moreover, per his understanding that date reflects the date (in '61) that the T530 first officially became blue, after six months of production in "Oyster Hammer" finish exclusively, under the T530 designation. He notes documentation of examples of Oyster Hammer T530s so far confined to the period of July 30 to November 20, 1960, and the earliest confirmed blue T530 as Feb 12, 1961 (anyone here got an earlier one?). A variety of evidence is presented in support, including entries in a parallel contemporary Celestion log designated the "PA Products Records List". He also shows a photo of the relevant page of the famous T Numbers log book, with "Blue" subsequently written over "Oyster".

    Brian- I'll send you some photos of relevant pages.

  20. #20
    Les Paul Forum Member Jeff West's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    " Were makers in the US 'doping' their speakers back then do you know. "

    Well, Jensen was one who did, although not just in the obvious ways.

    Twenty-odd years ago there was a reconer, Jim Benson, who I dealt with a number of times. He had decided to focus exclusively on vintage Jensens, was way into their details, had original parts, original Jensen paints, labels, cones, the works. I had some interesting conversations with him.

    One example I remember is that I have a few vintage P8RXs, pale silvery blue from 1958 (220830). The "X" version has a cone and dust cap that looks just like typical P8R, but it is an "extended frequency" model that has very noticeably more high end extension (and less bass) compared to standard '50s P8R. Accordingto Jim, the main difference in constructing these in the '50s was that a special doping dissolved in solvent was applied to the cone, stiffening and altering it. You can't really see it on the cone, but results were very pronounced. He had a stash of some of that stuff on hand, naturally.

    Incidentally,l I still have a few vintage P10Rs and P10Qs that he reconed back then, working fine and sounding good and authentic, I'm trying not to blow them all up. Not sure what happened to him, but his work lives on. Anyone here have Jim Benson encounters?

  21. #21
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    This is from the earliest known thin-lip AC15 (and sounds glorious).



    This one is from the earlest known AC1-15 (and sounded awful).

    The artist formerly known as "A-hole".



  22. #22
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Always a treat when Mr.West or F-Hole post a reply. They never fail to bring something to the table.
    Great stuff as always.

  23. #23
    Les Paul Forum Member goldtop0's Avatar
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    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by F-Hole View Post
    This is from the earliest known thin-lip AC15 (and sounds glorious).



    This one is from the earlest known AC1-15 (and sounded awful).



    Yes I've tried the Goodmans Audiom 50 speaker and can attest to its unsuitability for guitar amplification.............

  24. #24

    Re: Vintage ROLA G12 Alnico speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff West View Post
    Brian- I'll send you some photos of relevant pages.
    That would be cool, thanks.

    Do you know where the CT3757 fits into the picture? Supposedly the pre-cursor to the T530, yet music locker had one for sale a while ago that was dated 1963, well into vox blue time period.

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