Unmatched coils - limits??

dannytheartist · Jun 26, 2011

Hi!

We hear a lot recently about the advantages of unmatched coils in humbuckers - more bite, more dynamics, better pick attack etc etc. Apparently it was all accidental in the early days due to them being hand wound. Some modern manufacturers humbuckers are matched (Seymours for example) and other manufacturers offer unmatched coils in their humbuckers.

My questions are...

1. How unmatched is unmatched?! ...I've measured the coils in a pair of SD pickups which are supposed to be balanced and they are 3.98 and 4.12. They are different but is the difference so small that they are still considered matched?

2. How far can the coils be unmatched before the pickup starts humming and or sounding like a single coil? ...for example, would 3.50 and 4.50 be too much of a mismatch, or even 3.25 and 4.75?! They all equal roughly 8ohms but there will surely be a point when it starts to impact on the true 'paf' tone.

Cheers!

korus · Jun 26, 2011

Even if they are dead equal (equal DCR, equal number of winds, equal thickness of both wire and insulation) there is always a trace of hum with conventional bobbins - one screw, one slug - as dimensions are slightly different and screw and slug are different.

Lindy Fralin's Unbucker is e.g. 4.5k+3k which is highest intentional difference/mismatch but for the purpose of coil cutting (clearly using higher DCR coil).

Below 0.2k is the margin of error either winding or measurement.
02k-0.3k is too low and creates spikes like BBs bridge.
More than 0.7k-0.8k and it starts to have single coil quality.
So, 0.3-0.7k for 8k PAF type is what works best IME. For higher or lower DCR, just calculate proportionally.

But, regarding coils, the way coil is wound - wind style, type of scatter if any - is more important for the overall tone of PAF type. If it was not, it would be enough to unwind ~400 winds off of the Burstbucker's one coil and have a better PAF.
It does not happen, been there done that.

Black58 · Jun 26, 2011

dannytheartist said:
Apparently it was all accidental in the early days due to them being hand wound.

Accidental, yes; But not from being hand wound. They were NOT hand wound, they were wound on a machine that was stopped by hand ... and in most cases, too soon or too late! :wah .. :hee .. :ganz

dannytheartist · Jun 26, 2011

That is great info guys! I knew there was some sort of human 'error' in the windings of those early pafs but couldnt remember what it was, thanks for clarifying.

The reason I'm asking is I have two sets of pickups, 2x SD'59s and 2x Gib 57classics, both as you prob know with fairly matched coils. I WAS thinking of doing exactly as youve described and removing some of the winds off of one coil on either the 57s or the 59s, just to see what all the fuss is about with these unmatched coils - just as an experiment. Or even swapping the coils over from brand to brand to 'unmatch' them.

What happened with your BB when you unwound it, Korus ...did it sound worse?

Hamerfan · Jun 26, 2011

Its very dangerous to use ohm figures in this subject, since temperature makes a great difference. I unwound two vintage DiMarzio Pafs from 8k to 7k, so 3k and 4k coils. I seems that the pup developed a kind of P90 kind of tone.

cryptozoo · Jun 27, 2011

You might be surprised to know that there are several well-regarded boutique PAF clones that have evenly-matched coils. The winding is a different story.

CL-10 · Jun 27, 2011

It's been a couple of years now, but i took a good coil from a dead duncan J.B. pickup (43 maybe 44 gage wire at appx. 16.4k ohms total - so guessing around 8k ohms ) - and put it with a good coil from a dead '59 pickup ( i think this coil was around 3.8k ohms , 42 gage wire) and it sounded pretty good. Kinda reminded me of a P90, with a lot of harmonic content. It's pretty ballsy actually. I finally put it in an epiphone les paul jr., and keep it around for when something comes to mind i want to workout, but not get one of my favorites out of its case.

dannytheartist · Jun 28, 2011

What do you guys genuinely prefer - unmatched or matched coils in your humbuckers? - and why?

I'm becoming more and more cynical about it all to be honest. I consider myself to have a pretty good ear but I find the more I listen to all the sound clips on all the pickup makers websites comparing how 'radically different' and 'tonally diverse' all these variations on the same basic humbucker are, the more confused my ear seems to get and they all just start sounding the same!!!

A vintage single coil next to a paf - yes, an obvious difference. A low output paf next to a modern 20k+ ceramic - yes different again. But when we are talking about 7.0-9.0k paf voiced humbuckers, is there really that much difference between them all?

I guess its all about choice isnt it. And the more and more choices we are offered, the narrower the differences will become between those choices... to the point where we are all spending hundreds on variations that are barely perceptable even to us, let alone the people we play to. :hmm

And on that note I'm gonna put the stock '57 classics back in! :salude

Nihon Jim · Jun 28, 2011

dannytheartist said:
What do you guys genuinely prefer - unmatched or matched coils in your humbuckers? - and why?

I'm becoming more and more cynical about it all to be honest. I consider myself to have a pretty good ear but I find the more I listen to all the sound clips on all the pickup makers websites comparing how 'radically different' and 'tonally diverse' all these variations on the same basic humbucker are, the more confused my ear seems to get and they all just start sounding the same!!!

A vintage single coil next to a paf - yes, an obvious difference. A low output paf next to a modern 20k+ ceramic - yes different again. But when we are talking about 7.0-9.0k paf voiced humbuckers, is there really that much difference between them all?

I guess its all about choice isnt it. And the more and more choices we are offered, the narrower the differences will become between those choices... to the point where we are all spending hundreds on variations that are barely perceptable even to us, let alone the people we play to. :hmm

And on that note I'm gonna put the stock '57 classics back in! :salude

+1

I've tried hard over the years to hear the differences between "neck clean" on pup#1 and "neck clean" on pup#2 on the various pup sites. I admit, I can't hear it (I'm sure 25 years in submarine enginerooms had something to do with that). So often the guitars are different, the amps are different and as we all know that is a huge influence on the sound. Rather than changing out pups (I'm living with Classic '57s, BB Pros and SD Seth Lovers in my LPs and 335s) I adjust the tone controls on the guitar and amp to find what I'm wanting to hear from my guitar. Like many LPFers I've made my share of mods to the many guitars that I've lived with. But right now I'm in a happy place with my set up and don't foresee changes in the near term.

Sorry to derail the thread but dannytheartist's comments really struck a chord with me.

Thank you. I feel better now. :jim

jwalker · Jun 28, 2011

korus said:
Below 0.2k is the margin of error either winding or measurement.
02k-0.3k is too low and creates spikes like BBs bridge.
More than 0.7k-0.8k and it starts to have single coil quality.
So, 0.3-0.7k for 8k PAF type is what works best IME. For higher or lower DCR, just calculate proportionally.

But, regarding coils, the way coil is wound - wind style, type of scatter if any - is more important for the overall tone of PAF type. If it was not, it would be enough to unwind ~400 winds off of the Burstbucker's one coil and have a better PAF.
It does not happen, been there done that.

The coil offset for a real P.A.F. is typically not as wide as you would think. A .4K offset is on the upper end of the P.A.F. offset range. You can get as much as a .2K offset simply due to wire tolerance differences between two different spools wound on the same machine. This is especially true when you consider PE wire was not sorted min.-nom., nom.-max. in the 50's as it is now. All of the winders used for P.A.F.'s had counters and all but one had auto stops. But the different machines had different wire pitch settings so for the same number of turns you will get different resistances and they also had different ramp down speeds.

korus · Jun 28, 2011

jwalker said:
The coil offset for a real P.A.F. is typically not as wide as you would think. A .4K offset is on the upper end of the P.A.F. offset range. You can get as much as a .2K offset simply due to wire tolerance differences between two different spools wound on the same machine. This is especially true when you consider PE wire was not sorted min.-nom., nom.-max. in the 50's as it is now. All of the winders used for P.A.F.'s had counters and all but one had auto stops. But the different machines had different wire pitch settings so for the same number of turns you will get different resistances and they also had different ramp down speeds.

I'm aware of tolerances, there's a post I wrote in the other forum http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/pickups/145804-paf-reality-check-5.html#post2806626

However, this is the first time (at least that I'm aware of) that anyone of winders who had examined PAFs explicitly stated any figures of coil mismatch they've found. I thank you for that sincerely.

My best guess is that going up with coil mismatch a bit to .5k-.6k is something that can compensate for different tone of contemporary wood used in Historics compared to vintage Gibson solidbodies. Or for darker sounding hardware. Or both. At least IME. But the wind pattern is more important, again IME.

jwalker · Jun 28, 2011

korus said:
I'm aware of tolerances, there's a post I wrote in the other forum http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/pickups/145804-paf-reality-check-5.html#post2806626

However, this is the first time (at least that I'm aware of) that anyone of winders who had examined PAFs explicitly stated any figures of coil mismatch they've found. I thank you for that sincerely.

My best guess is that going up with coil mismatch a bit to .5k-.6k is something that can compensate for different tone of contemporary wood used in Historics compared to vintage Gibson solidbodies. Or for darker sounding hardware. Or both. At least IME. But the wind pattern is more important, again IME.

This is based upon my experience based upon repairs etc.. of P.A.F.'s but YMMV. Personally I think above .4K quickly becomes a problem for a PAF tonally and personally I think the sweet spot tends to be below .4K. But which coil gets the offset also plays a role.

Black58 · Jul 1, 2011

dannytheartist said:
What do you guys genuinely prefer - unmatched or matched coils in your humbuckers? - and why?

It all depends on the guitar, not me. :ganz .. :jim

BedburBurst · Feb 12, 2020

The Homemade Set in my Les Paul has, to be honest, a 0.7k mismatch in the Neck and a 0.8 or even 0.9k mismatch in the Bridge. Especially the Neck one acts like a Tele Bridge one when clean and has some very high frequencies that can only be eliminated by turning up your bass control or turning down your tone pot. Those frequencies may seem unpleasant to some ears, but imo, this is just the tele character in these Pups.
As others said, no coil was ever hand wound in the Gibson factory in Kalamazoo. Until 58, they didnt have counters, so in the year of 57, some of the hottest PAFs were born, like Duanes Darkburst´s.
When the coil looked full, they cut the wire, and that´s the reason some of ´em have a coil mismatch of almost 2k. Not all PAFs sounded and/or sound that good at all, so a 2k mismatch is not better than a 0.4k mismatch is not better than a whatever you want.
But Resistance is just a number that tells us that a coil works. The number of windings is the key to determining how the pickup could possibly sound.

Sol · Feb 25, 2020

Of the vintage PAFs measured, is there any pattern established as to which coil is wound 'hotter' than the other ?
If it's random things get really interesting for anyone trying to replicate them. Knowing the mismatch without knowing which coil to add to, complicates things.
But this assumes that it matters, and it may not, for all we know.

Sol · Feb 28, 2020

It seems likely that any mismatch of coils was both modest and random as to which bobbin got the extra few hundred turns, or so.
It's one of the most interesting aspects of vintage Gibson's. We're facinated by a component that many are trying to reproduce, and for those of us working with the wood, wire, and fret end of the craft, the desire to understand the dark art of electromagnetics can overcome our (my) need to recognise that some details need to retain confidentiality within the pickup community...

Big Al · Feb 29, 2020

I prefer resistance matched coils. All the rewound humbuckers and the first run of Seymour Duncans he wound for me are stair step wound, not scatter wound and have resistance matched coils. My favourite '90's 57 Classics have matched coils, too. I prefer these pickups.

That said I also have Custombuckers, 90's Antiquity's and others with coil offsets that I like. I think quality made pickups by experienced winders tend to sound good, regardless the coil's matching, as they build an entire pickup with carefull consideration given to all components and spec's.

Still, I prefer coils to match.

LtKojak · Mar 1, 2020

I guess nobody noticed you're responding to an over 8-year old thread?

:##:##:##

Big Al · Mar 2, 2020

LtKojak said:
I guess nobody noticed you're responding to an over 8-year old thread?

:##:##:##

No, Iwas responding to the three current posts but hadn't realised that a topic had an expiration date.:hmm

Sol · Mar 2, 2020

Big Al said:
I prefer resistance matched coils. All the rewound humbuckers and the first run of Seymour Duncans he wound for me are stair step wound, not scatter wound and have resistance matched coils. My favourite '90's 57 Classics have matched coils, too. I prefer these pickups.

That said I also have Custombuckers, 90's Antiquity's and others with coil offsets that I like. I think quality made pickups by experienced winders tend to sound good, regardless the coil's matching, as they build an entire pickup with carefull consideration given to all components and spec's.

Still, I prefer coils to match.

I have to say that I've found that bridge pups wound to equal turns on each bobbin (as opposed to winding to identical DC resistance) Often produce a tone I've preferred to one of the same DC resistance with mismatched coils.
This extends to neck PAF types, but in both cases this preference is for what we would regard as low output winds in the 7.0 - 7.4 k and 7.7 - 8.0 k neck and bridge respectively.

I tend to prefer a mismatch in the neck when the resistance rises above 7.9 k due to reduced definition/clarity. I'm referring here to an early Classic 57, at 8.2 k. ( Big Al, is this pup wound to turn numbers or to DC resistance?)

The remedy was simply to swap the '57 to the bridge and the early production BB 2 at 8.3 k to the neck and the swap worked well for me for a number of yrs, not to mention giving me back that distinctive middle position tone I love.

I'm a big fan of Duncans Antiquity's. You mentioned' 90,s Antiquity's having mismatched coils, is this still the case today ?
There's no doubt that Seth Lovers have a more balanced tone in comparison, at least to my ear, and comparing them to the Pearly Gates, gives the impression that the P Gates may have a slight mismatch. These are my personal favourites from S Duncan, and have yet to find a guitar where one of these will not work to great effect.

I sometimes feel that the varying wire tension produced by the smaller custom winder guiding the wire by hand produces most if not all the mismatch necessary to produce a great PAF style pickup.

It's amazing how the right pickup in the right position can return the inspiration to a player that was considerating changing their guitar.

Unmatched coils - limits??

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