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Does Gibson still use a REAL Nitrocellulose Finish to the wood.....

emg32

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May 27, 2003
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or is it really a Poly undercoat with a layer of Nitro on top just so they can call them Nitrocellulose finishes?

I've heard different stories but can't seem to find a DEFINITE REAL answer.
 

access

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I'm not sure.

I would guess no, simply because I can't imagine how well a bond nitro would make against poly.

Of course I'm no expert on petro-chemicals, nor do I mix the stuff at Gibson!
 

emg32

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Nitro, baby -- all the way! :dude:

Are you 100% positive about that? I've heard stories that Gibson quit using all Nitro in the mid 90's and now uses a Poly undercoat with Nitro as a top coat just so they can say they still use Nitro finishes.
 

Gold Tone

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I'm not sure.

I would guess no, simply because I can't imagine how well a bond nitro would make against poly.

Of course I'm no expert on petro-chemicals, nor do I mix the stuff at Gibson!


It bonds fine. Poly is often used as a pore filler and nitro over top. Or in the case of Fender and their American Vintage Series, it's as was asked....poly all the way until the final coat of Nitro so they can say it is nitro finished.

Gibson is nitro but more and more placticizer recently.
 

Garampingat

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Are you 100% positive about that? I've heard stories that Gibson quit using all Nitro in the mid 90's and now uses a Poly undercoat with Nitro as a top coat just so they can say they still use Nitro finishes.
maybe you're talking about Fender.
i had a '04 Std. i regularly played for 5 years and the finish is starting to wear where my forearm rest right down to the maple.
 

emg32

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maybe you're talking about Fender.
i had a '04 Std. i regularly played for 5 years and the finish is starting to wear where my forearm rest right down to the maple.

I know Fender has did this for years but I'm hearing some say that Gibson does the same thing as Fender just so they can say they still use Nitro finishes.

I believe (and really hope) Gibson does still use true Nitro down to the wood but I'm just trying to get some expert responses so I know the REAL truth.
 

ScottsR9

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or is it really a Poly undercoat with a layer of Nitro on top just so they can call them Nitrocellulose finishes?

I've heard different stories but can't seem to find a DEFINITE REAL answer.

A picture is worth a thousand words...

Finish.jpg


Photo is from Florian Jaeger's website.
 

emg32

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A picture is worth a thousand words...

Finish.jpg


Photo is from Florian Jaeger's website.


I know Gibsons finish has slightly more plasicizers in it than the old days but it's still Nitrocellulose down to the wood isn't it?
 

Gold Tone

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Yes. Not like vintage in terms of placticizers and how thick it goes on but yes, still all nitro.
 

emg32

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Yes. Not like vintage in terms of placticizers and how thick it goes on but yes, still all nitro.


Thanks. Even if Gibson adds more plasticizers now I don't feel the finishes are really any thicker now (at least not from my experience). You can see/feel the wood grain through most of my Gibsons finishes, even the black.
 

Gold Tone

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True, you can see it too.

But....if you've ever had the pleasure of holding and playing a 50's or early 60's Gibson you'd see the difference....and it is HUGE. The finish on a vintage Gibson is more part of the wood than on top of it. Sure, a lot of it has to do with time and that nitro shrinks and settles in over time, but new Gibsons are not that thin. They are comparatively quite thick.
 

emg32

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True, you can see it too.

But....if you've ever had the pleasure of holding and playing a 50's or early 60's Gibson you'd see the difference....and it is HUGE. The finish on a vintage Gibson is more part of the wood than on top of it. Sure, a lot of it has to do with time and that nitro shrinks and settles in over time, but new Gibsons are not that thin. They are comparatively quite thick.

Maybe someday. A '74 Gibson LPC is the oldest I have had the pleasure of playing so far.

I'm sure 30 years from now alot will be praising how awesome the Gibsons of today are. It seems like everything vintage gets praise over newer, especially with musical instruments.
 

Gold Tone

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Most often it is deserved but not always. There are A LOT of dogs in the vintage world.

If we were talking Fender then you would get a HUGE number of people saying the opposite. It is pretty well agreed that what the Fender Custom Shop is putting out today beats the "average" vintage Fender to the ground.
 

jpap

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Without being an expert, I see HUGE difference between Gibson USA and Gibson CS finishes.. The USA models seem to have a harder, much thicker finish, that definitely has plasticizers in it. The CS guitars (as in the image above, it's probably during a refinishing of a VOS towards a makeover), especially VOS have a very thin, soft finish. Actually I see also huge difference between CS guitars of the same year. I always do slightly age my CSs, so recently I aged a 09 R7 and a 09 R8. The finish at the back of body and neck is absolutely of different art (besides the color) on both guitars. The R8 has that typical VOS "elastic" finish (as in the image above and as in my 07 VOS R9). The R7, on the other side, has a much thinner, harder coat, that makes it look a lot more real by aging, as it becomes almost one part with the wood (exactly as Gold Tone described...). This R7 is by far my most "vintage" looking LP (Ok, along with my Murphy R9)... To make it more understandable: R8 coat pieces are bendable, like skin (as clearly seen in the image above), R7 pieces are not, the just break by the slightest pressure...My 2c
 
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Magnum

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Are you 100% positive about that? I've heard stories that Gibson quit using all Nitro in the mid 90's and now uses a Poly undercoat with Nitro as a top coat just so they can say they still use Nitro finishes.

Not trying to be an ass but Mike Slub knows more about Gibson than probably any 200 people on here put together. With a few exceptions of course! :biggrin: Check out some of his articles and photos of his collection. The man is hard-wired into Gibson. Past and Present. :salude
 

GuitArtMan

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Jan 30, 2004
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Gibson definitely adds something to the finish when compared to Fender. I had put some masking tape on a strat that I was shielding the cavity on. Immagine my horror when I pull the tape off to find it has interacted with the nitrocellulose laquer and has left permanent melt marks. I had to go down to 600 grit to get the marks out. The immagine my horror when I realized I had the same tap on my CS-336 for a mod I was doing, only it had been on there longger! Pulled the tape off, cleaned up the goo with naptha, and the finish looked as good as new. Gibson definitely adds something to the nitro.
 

reswot

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Jan 22, 2004
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Different lacquers have different formulations. There's not a single formula for nitrocellulose lacquer. Read the MSDS forms for a few known nitros; there are several differences.

McFadden, Deft, and Watco are all nitro, but they're all a bit different -- not only in the amount, but in the type of plasticizers they use, along with a few other ingredients. The Deft is a bit more flexible even after drying and resistant to checking and yellowing -- not unlike what Gibson uses now. Watco dries hard and fast; it checks easily and will yellow pretty quickly.
 

Scott Lentz

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Jul 26, 2001
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As stated, their are many different formulations,synthetic resins and natural resins , what most manufacturers use is Catalizied Lacquer. One can add the harderener to the finish and the cure time is enhanced greatly for polishing.The amount of finish that is applied equals the time the Lacquer needs to dry.The less finish, less drying time! This, is what a "Journeyman" finisher understands, the relationship between sealer, woodfiller, and top coats. The idea that there is some Magical Lacquer out there with out plasticizer, or that plasticizer is equal to plastic, is unfounded.
 
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