Does Gibson still use a REAL Nitrocellulose Finish to the wood.....

emg32 · Aug 27, 2009

Scott Lentz said:
As stated, their are many different formulations,synthetic resins and natural resins , what most manufacturers use is Catalizied Lacquer. One can add the harderener to the finish and the cure time is enhanced greatly for polishing.The amount of finish that is applied equals the time the Lacquer needs to dry.The less finish, less drying time! This, is what a "Journeyman" finisher understands, the relationship between sealer, woodfiller, and top coats. The idea that there is some Magical Lacquer out there with out plasticizer, or that plasticizer is equal to plastic, is unfounded.

Thanks guys. That pretty much seals the deal for me also. I was pretty sure that Gibson was still all Nitro but your comments are definite proof for me.

58Lover · Aug 27, 2009

I do remember a few years back, seeing some LP models from USA that had a "UV Cured" finish, which we employees took as "shhh, it's poly, but we're not calling it that." I'm sure Custom Shop didn't use that, but nowadays, who knows?

Garampingat · Aug 27, 2009

58Lover said:
I do remember a few years back, seeing some LP models from USA that had a "UV Cured" finish, which we employees took as "shhh, it's poly, but we're not calling it that." I'm sure Custom Shop didn't use that, but nowadays, who knows?

maybe its the Les Paul Special SL. SL meaning 'Sans Lacquer'. i don't think Gibson hid it that its a non-nitro finished.

its the only non-nitro Gibson i know.

Magnum · Aug 28, 2009

edit: Nevermind. I read something incorrectly.

58Lover · Aug 28, 2009

Hey Mag, didja get a lap dance or sumptin' fun for your birthday?

Magnum · Aug 28, 2009

58Lover said:
Hey Mag, didja get a lap dance or sumptin' fun for your birthday?

Not quite! It was pretty boring. As it should be!

58Lover · Aug 28, 2009

Remember my 40th? Staring into long necks in Nashburg???

wooderson · Aug 28, 2009

Gold Tone said:
Most often it is deserved but not always. There are A LOT of dogs in the vintage world.

If we were talking Fender then you would get a HUGE number of people saying the opposite. It is pretty well agreed that what the Fender Custom Shop is putting out today beats the "average" vintage Fender to the ground.

I agree that there are a lot of vintage dogs, not to mention vintage guitars that don't live up to the hype, but the idea that Fender Custom Shop is generally agreed to produce better guitars than vintage Fenders is news to me.

I am sure some would say so, but I am unaware of any consensus on this.

hoss · Aug 28, 2009

ScottsR9 said:
A picture is worth a thousand words...

Photo is from Florian Jaeger's website.

And I believe Florian. The lacquer Gibson puts on todays guitars (also Historics) is way different than in the old days.

dwagar · Aug 28, 2009

IIRC they started changing it in 1960. The damn old stuff faded right there in the store windows.

hoss · Aug 28, 2009

dwagar said:
IIRC they started changing it in 1960. The damn old stuff faded right there in the store windows.

That has something to do with the dye formula.
Todays R8 and R9 Historics fade, too but they still don't have the same thin and hard nitro finish the old Bursts do.

1fastdog · Aug 28, 2009

There are different types of Nitro lacquer formulations.

The finish on the Gibsons I have been around made post the early '60's have a thicker finish than earlier ones.

As for Gibsons post 1990, I couldn't tell you.

Jon Rambo · Aug 28, 2009

GuitArtMan said:
Gibson definitely adds something to the finish when compared to Fender. I had put some masking tape on a strat that I was shielding the cavity on. Immagine my horror when I pull the tape off to find it has interacted with the nitrocellulose laquer and has left permanent melt marks. I had to go down to 600 grit to get the marks out. The immagine my horror when I realized I had the same tap on my CS-336 for a mod I was doing, only it had been on there longger! Pulled the tape off, cleaned up the goo with naptha, and the finish looked as good as new. Gibson definitely adds something to the nitro.

Yea, there has to be some plasticizers added or something. I have a white Fender strat with a nitro finish and there are little stress lines or whatever from temp changes, etc. I like the way it looks on that guitar but I'm glad the finish on my LP is a little more durable. The LP finishes still don't seem to be too thick or heavily plasticized like a Jackson or Ibanez or something.

hoss · Aug 28, 2009

Jon Rambo, the Fender custom colors also are not "true nitro". The DuPont colors themselves not and Fender used a thick layer of "Fullerplast" underneath the nitro.

Jon Rambo · Aug 28, 2009

hoss said:
Jon Rambo, the Fender custom colors also are not "true nitro". The DuPont colors themselves not and Fender used a thick layer of "Fullerplast" underneath the nitro.

Yea, I don't think much is just nitro. I just know the Fender I have has those stress lines and has faded and is worn down to the wood in some places. The finish on my LP feels different and looking at it it's a little more glossy looking. But as I said before, I'm all for it not fading too quick and having those lines from temp changes and all. It's still a nice feeling finish they have on the LPs.

*I just want to add that I am by no means an expert on any of this. I'm just adding to someone's statemnt that there's all sorts of diff formulas for the laquers since I have guitars of diff brands that are both nitro, but def aren't the same.

hoss · Aug 28, 2009

Jon Rambo said:
Yea, I don't think much is just nitro. I just know the Fender I have has those stress lines and has faded and is worn down to the wood in some places.

Same with my early '65.

Sorry for posting Fender pics on the LPF, just for illustration (cracks can be seen nicely around the bridge):

1fastdog · Aug 28, 2009

Bear in mind that Dupont pretty much owned the industrial nitro lacquer business from the 20's through the end of it's legal use with vehicle finishes. Duco was Dupont's nitro and Dulux was the acrylic lacquer.

Fender used Duco and Dulux.

Gibson primarily shot nothing but nitro up 'til a point in the '60's.

Thin is the deal with nitro. Also Gibson used paste fillers in finishing. Dyed paste fillers for walnut and cherry. The dyed paste fillers and nitro clears resulted in a bleed that was unique.

The thicker finishes I have noted in '50-'60 LP's would be the goldtop color areas. With LP's the 'burst finishes are quite thin compared to later pieces.

I'm certain Gibson can rightfully claim to shoot a "nitro" formulation. I don't believe it's the same mil thickness or characteristic as the true vintage stuff.

My final thought is that a finish that compliments the tone of an instrument would be preferred over one that dampens positive tone quality.

emg32 · Aug 29, 2009

Gibson still to this day seems to be anti Poly or any type of finishes that doesn't let the wood breathe and resonate naturally.

I'm sure their Nitro formulas and application thickness has changed many many times over the years but I'm pretty convinced, from what I have heard, they are still using a all Nitrocellulose finish down to the wood.

Garampingat · Aug 29, 2009

i remember reading somewhere that fender(and probably gibson too) in the 1950s shoots their nitro hot. as in they heat the nitro when they are spraying it allowing them to spray very thin finishes. it is dangerous since nitro is flammable so they stop doing it.

Magnum · Aug 29, 2009

Here's a good test. Someone should take the pile of "stuff" in the previously posted photo out into an empty parking lot and try to light it on fire. If they lose all of their hair and eyebrows in about one second, it's nitrocellulose. On second thought, don't do that! :wow That stuff really burns.

Anyway, there are still a number of companies that use nitrocellulose to manufacture guitar picks so the "plastic" look of the material in this photo seems pretty normal to me.

Does Gibson still use a REAL Nitrocellulose Finish to the wood.....

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