How did Darkburst come about on a 59 Burst?

Here's an enlargement of Clay's pic. This area was sprayed bright cherry red, I know this because have seen it still bright cherry mnany times. The outer band ends where you see it end. You will many times see this are under the tip still bright cherry, dark maroon, or completely browned. All the while the back remains cherry in that same area of the band. If the outer coat had something to do with this the same outer coat would have an effect on the back band as well. The concealed outline of the pickguard you see will also sometimes be cherry, brown or maroon with much more color remaining than on this example. It's pretty clear that red dye in 1959 turned enough colors to account for just about every burst you'll fing execp the "tobacco" examples. I've been noticing this on old Strats for three decades.

I can clearly recall buying two '59 pristine maple neck Strats in the same day in around 1982. I stopped by the shop of a well known luthier back in that day in New Orleans and when I opened the cases he said "what happened to that one?!!" One had a brownish maroon band that was splotchy the other was red, both guitars were pristine. BOTH were cherry on the back. We argued about the guitar, this guy trying to tell me the front had been refinished. When we pulled the pickguard it still had a cherry overspray under the outline of the guard. I finally got him to believe that this guitar had changed colors while the other one hadn't. And I do have pics of this guitar stored either on floppy or CD. I will dig them up.

j45 Some pics would be great.:salude

Nobody has a pic of a darkburst LesPaul without plastic? Without pickups or without toggleswitch ring?

expo said:

Nobody has a pic of a darkburst LesPaul without plastic? Without pickups or without toggleswitch ring?

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..no use ...even with a pic someone here would be so adamant as to say it wasn't original...

garywright said:

..no use ...even with a pic someone here would be so adamant as to say it wasn't original...

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No problem.

The plain truth can look different from different angles, every opinion is welcome, this is a discussion not a bible. There are enough people with a long time experience, even if its different.:2cool

I haven't seen anyone here say there's no such thing as a "dark" burst. I think everyone knows this. What I'm saying is that it's pretty obvious that plain old cherry red will turn just about every color (iced tea, maroon, brown, etc) that 90% of these other Les Pauls end up.... Including many people are calling "dark bursts".

J 45 I quess I misunderstood what you were saying.I thought you were reffering to the red missing on the treble side of the guitar under the guard!
On many guitars the Dark color is so light either from sanding/polishing or under spraying you can see through the dark color and into the red below, which is now purple because of the purple brown over coat. Seeing though the dark color is always evident on the sides and the cutaways if one looks at the guitar in the sunlight. The picture I'm seeing is in an area that would lend it's self to what I've described.

BOTB is saying this is cherry that turned brown??

This is another sample of tanned aniline red (fuchsin)

Filler with added Fuchsin rubbed in and sprayed with 2 coats of clear.
Swietenia mahogany.

Left: after 30 min tanning bed, middle: taped without UV exposure, right: after 2 hours



But I am pretty sure other reds will react totally different.

This back looks brown, the pic of the Strat shows a faded red in the middle.

We know both is possible, isn´t it logical they used whatever aniline cherry was available at the time and maybe mixed it up?

If the filler for the back came ready mixed..it could be different also.

Side question: Wasn´t it common knowledge that the BOTB colors were wrong?

The color is so blown out on the BOTB pics it's really hard to tell anything...

So, if you took a "typical" vintage '59 darkburst/tobacco burst, and exposed it to enough sunlight over a long period of time, would it eventually lighten up and actually fade back to a "teaburst" color? Something like the shot of Pearly above?

I realize there may be an infinite number of outcomes to this, I'm just looking for a "likely" outcome, if there is one...

bjm007 said:

So, if you took a "typical" vintage '59 darkburst/tobacco burst, and exposed it to enough sunlight over a long period of time, would it eventually lighten up and actually fade back to a "teaburst" color? Something like the shot of Pearly above?

I realize there may be an infinite number of outcomes to this, I'm just looking for a "likely" outcome, if there is one...

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Well. we usually see a little fading on well played sunburst guitars when comparing front to back but they don't fade like bursts do. My '59 335 was one of the most faded I've ever seen but still has a very stong, even band. There are probably at least 10,000 tobacco sunburst Gibsons made in 1959. You would be hard pressed to find any that look like Pearly.

abalonevintage said:

Case in point. :salude 1961 Les Paul Custom!!!

1961 Gibson Les Paul Custom vintage Firebird sunburst finish. 1961 SG Custom guitar.

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This LP/SG is a refin correct?
I've only ever seen a picture of one original LP/SG Burst and it was a Standard

I'ts an original finish as afar as I know. Here's another(or the same one?)

This '61 LP/SG Standard Burst is an example of Burst coloring.

abalonevintage said:

Case in point. :salude 1961 Les Paul Custom!!!

1961 Gibson Les Paul Custom vintage Firebird sunburst finish. 1961 SG Custom guitar.

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I have never seen a cherry sunburst on a mahogany surface on a Gibson.


Here's what was shown as a 57 Burst back in the 70s. This had a mahogany top. :hmm

I've done a lot of research and testing on this. Here's what I've learned - First, remember that before any color is sprayed, the maple is actually dyed yellow, with a dye that did not fade (well, not much, at least). Then a clear coat was applied. When the cherry was sprayed, they used what I believe was a salt based aniline dye, IIRC. Highly UV sensitive. Aniline dyes were sold to the Persian textile industry in the 1890s, and almost ruined the Persian rug business. It's funny, because those rugs are very easy to date, because they only used them for about four years, before the Shah declared them illegal, because people were buying these beautiful rugs, and within a couple years, all the colors faded to browns, greens and tans. They wound up going back to the more expensive and harder to produce vegetal dyes.

Anyway, pre-1960 cherry burst is made of mostly red, with a very small touch of blue. In fact, it's so touchy that just a couple grains of blue can change the color. I've reached the conclusion that the dye batches varied so much, which is why some bursts fade to brown iced tea and some fade to orange iced tea. The more blue, the browner it will become. The less blue, the oranger it will become.

So, what happens is that the red is the least stable, and fades first. The blue fades slower, and as the red to blue ratio diminishes, you get further towards purple. What's purple and yellow give you? Brown. Remember that yellow dye underneath all this? That's a factor. And the clear coat yellowing / browning is a factor, too. Eventually, all the dyes can fade, leaving you a lemon drop.

What has made some of the guitars darker than others I believe is either a thicker coat, or just more dye added to the lacquer. As has been said, they could have been trying to hide stuff, or that's just the way it happened that day.

Here's a guitar I refinished, using the most historically accurate dyes I could find. I was trying to copy the look of Pearly. Here's the PG pic I referenced, and my finished product:




The dyed lacquer fades faster if you expose it before the final clear coat, I discovered. Here's the cherry before fading and after. You can see that I applied it heavy on the shoulder and horn, so that it would go deep.




Here's the guitar after spraying a tinted clear coat, to duplicate the yellowing process.



I hope this helps explain some of the fading changes we see, and answers some questions.

so no real answer about how darkbursts came about....

It is my favorite burst color though :hank

ONEHERO said:

so no real answer about how darkbursts came about....

It is my favorite burst color though :hank

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I think Big Al's answer is clear and concise. :ganz

My 1968 Les Paul Standard

I've never seen a finish like that on an old Gibson. Looks like a refin. :hmm

Maybe repost this in the other vintage area [where 68 LPs are discussed] and hopefully get informed responses.