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ES335 Bones

jwalker

jwalker

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The glue went on the rim kerfing with a hand paint roller when they where not using hide glue. If they were using hide glue it would be slopped on thick and fast with a large bristle brush. This is the only way to do that large of an area with hide glue. You have to work quick before it gels. Both methods are sloppy but fast.

What I think is even more amazing is how little hand work went into some of the assemblies. The kerfed spruce mating surface was done by machine and fits perfectly.
 
TomGuitar

TomGuitar

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Great, great stuff, Rev and Doc. This is my first chance to visit in a couple of days and I run across this. What a place.
 
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plaintop60

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Hi Troels. I have to say that after 30 plus years in this buisiness, I've learned one thing if nothing else and that is, Gibson tends to be an unreliable source of information. I've also learned some other things including a few things about poplar. For one thing the wood that we usually are referring to when we speak of Poplar is is Yellow Poplar, also called Tulipwood or Tulip Poplar. It's actually not a true Poplar at all but Liriodendron Tulipifera. This wood is very yellow in color and turns green or purple upon exposure to oxygen. Compared to maple this wood is quite yellow even when fresh and much yellower in color than either Birch or Basswood. I'm very familiar with this stuff as I have used it for decades as a speaker cabinet wood. It's relatively soft, although quite a bit harder than Basswood and it does rot very easily when exposed to conditions of high humidity. The only true Poplars that I'm aware of that are used as commercial timbers in the USA are Aspen and Balsam. On the newer guitars I've examined they are certainly using Poplar. It's been something like 30 years since I spent much time working in a Luthierie so memory is just a little hazy, but iircc most if not all of the early laminated guitars had either Birch or Maple for the laminate core. It would be very easy to take that sample and have it analyzed by an expert in woods to determine what species of wood it is. I agree about the phenolic resin being an equally important part of the equation here. The rubbery gummy vinyl based glues are going to act as sound deadening material and of course the phenolic resins used in the early laminate is going to enhance rigidity and of course tone as well. IMO, This is a fascinating subject and an important one if you are interested in producing guitars that approach the original ones in terms of tone.
 
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RickN

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Feb 12, 2002
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bharat.k said:
Fantastic! Any pics of the rim laminations?
Click to expand...

Here you go - your wish is our command -

It looks like three layers... plus a veneer on the outside? I can't necessarily believe that the lacquer is that thick:

es335_guts_9.jpg
 
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Troels

Guest
plaintop60 said:
Hi Troels. I have to say that after 30 plus years in this buisiness, I've learned one thing if nothing else and that is, Gibson tends to be an unreliable source of information. I've also learned some other things including a few things about poplar. For one thing the wood that we usually are referring to when we speak of Poplar is is Yellow Poplar, also called Tulipwood or Tulip Poplar. It's actually not a true Poplar at all but Liriodendron Tulipifera. This wood is very yellow in color and turns green or purple upon exposure to oxygen. Compared to maple this wood is quite yellow even when fresh and much yellower in color than either Birch or Basswood. I'm very familiar with this stuff as I have used it for decades as a speaker cabinet wood. It's relatively soft, although quite a bit harder than Basswood and it does rot very easily when exposed to conditions of high humidity. The only true Poplars that I'm aware of that are used as commercial timbers in the USA are Aspen and Balsam. On the newer guitars I've examined they are certainly using Poplar. It's been something like 30 years since I spent much time working in a Luthierie so memory is just a little hazy, but iircc most if not all of the early laminated guitars had either Birch or Maple for the laminate core. It would be very easy to take that sample and have it analyzed by an expert in woods to determine what species of wood it is. I agree about the phenolic resin being an equally important part of the equation here. The rubbery gummy vinyl based glues are going to act as sound deadening material and of course the phenolic resins used in the early laminate is going to enhance rigidity and of course tone as well. IMO, This is a fascinating subject and an important one if you are interested in producing guitars that approach the original ones in terms of tone.
Click to expand...

I certainly do believe you plaintop60 - and I also think it could be very interesting to get a piece from the skeleton examined by a dendrologist (is that the correct title?). I agree that the hole subject is very fascinating - and I wonder if former employees from Kalamazoo can remember these and other details.

There's a former Gibson Kalamazoo luthier, Tom Bradfield, who may remember interesting things - maybe we could make a liste of questions here in the forum and mail it to him - check this video here: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=93nBgHR-6mk&feature=related

Some of you guys over there in USA could probably find out where the man lives (Kalamazoo???). Another former employee is Maudie Moore - and as far as I know she's still working for Gibson.

An interesting thing is the spruce reinforment filling the gab between top/back and center block. The same type of slotted spruce piece is glued to the inside surface of the top of my ES-330 (but no center block of course and nothing on gthe inside surface of the back) - but on this supposedly cheaper than a 335 Gibson guitar this spruce piece is 100% quarter sawn with absolutely vertical grains in the cross cut.
 
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plaintop60

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Troels, I think I can shed some light on your es330...maybe. The spruce pad that goes between the center block and the arched top and back is called a contour brace. I believe that Gibson used the same top and backs for 330's as they did for 335's. When a machine went down in the plant every one on the factory floor had to keep busy so they picked up a broom, went to the re-work stations, or went to their crew cheif or foreman and said, "what should I do now boss, the band saw is down", or you name the scenario. Sometimes they would have an employee gluing contour braces onto tops and backs while they waited for an operation to be restored to production. You really have to work in a factory for a few years to appreciate this process. Anyone caught screwing the puppy during downtime was toast. So some es330's ended up with contour bracing instead of parallel braces. My boss used to jump in the car from NYC and go to Kalamazoo to pick up parts like tops and backs and pre-formed sides and things like that to keep on hand so we could repair Gibsons with authentic parts when it was needed. I've only been to the Kalamazoo plant a couple of times. Quite an Old World operation until about the mid seventies by which time Norlin had spewed enough corporate venom into Gibson to render it a corpse, just like they did to Olds Brass, Lowry Organ, and all the other musical instrument companies it destroyed.
 
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Troels

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Interestring plaintop, very. You say that some ES 330 ended up with contour bracings instead of parallel braces... I've never seen a 330 with parallel braces (I guess I've seen perhaps 50 with a pickup removed). They've all had the characteristic contour bracing... so I wonder if your story could be other way around - so that a few got parallel braces rather than contour bracing which was the standard? or could perhaps confuse parallel braced 120, 125, 135, 225 and 175 tops with 330 tops... just wonder.
 
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plaintop60

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Certainly I could have it backwards. It's been a long time. another theory that one of my coleagues had was they had parallel bracing on the earliest models and went to contour in an attempt to give these guitars better feedback control.
 
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Troels

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plaintop60 said:
Certainly I could have it backwards. It's been a long time. another theory that one of my coleagues had was they had parallel bracing on the earliest models and went to contour in an attempt to give these guitars better feedback control.
Click to expand...

That could be case... my 330T has an R FON with a batch number placing it somewhere in the midlle of 1960 (I have a collection of FONs from 1959 and 1960). But still it has a clubby 1959-neck... it's a great guitar a tight in the gluelines quite unlike the guitar shown here.
 
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bharat.k

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Had to ressurect this great thread! I noticed the inside lamination of the rims doesn't look like maple. Any ideas of what it is?
 
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