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Does wax potting destroy PAF tone ??

John B.

John B.

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Oct 11, 2004
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I prefer unpotted pups, more raw wooly complexity & 3-D detail. But then I'm not a high-gain guy in a cookie monster band.:headbange If it squeels, you can always put a strip of double sided tape between the pup and the cover.

:foghorn
 
StSpider

StSpider

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beck-ola said:
Most people including the majority, if not all members of guitar gear forums can't even say for sure when someone is using a tele or a les paul on recordings, so a potted pickup isn't all that important.
Click to expand...

I don't think that's true. I live in a building with many appartments, and I was pretty sure, hearing my neighbour from the appartment beneath mine play, that he was playing on a strat through a Marshall. When I get to meet him I asked, and it turned out I was right.

Fender or Gibson scale lenght, single coils vs humbuckers are not too difficult to tell apart if there's not excessive processing.

I do agree on the potted versus unpotted debate tough. It's not THAT that makes a difference between good tone or "meh" tone (or even between great and good)
 
beck-ola

beck-ola

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A quick search through any forum will reveal people arguing endlessly about what guitar and amp is being used on such and such a recording.

''that's definitely a les paul''

''sounds like a tele to me''

etc etc.

Did Jimmy Page use a tele or a les paul for the main riff to heartbreaker? Noone can say for sure just based on listening to the recording.

There are many examples where people have heard a les paul and it's been something else and vice versa.
 
Black58

Black58

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beck-ola said:
A quick search through any forum will reveal people arguing endlessly about what guitar and amp is being used on such and such a recording.

''that's definitely a les paul''

''sounds like a tele to me''

etc etc.

Did Jimmy Page use a tele or a les paul for the main riff to heartbreaker? Noone can say for sure just based on listening to the recording.

There are many examples where people have heard a les paul and it's been something else and vice versa.
Click to expand...

... as I stated before, ain't about the listener. :ganz
 
D

Drawrein

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I have to figure if Gibson could skip the potting without complaints they would. Most companies are real whores when it comes to saving a few cents on their products. How do you know the 60's guys with all the great tone weren't wax potting too? They were all freaking out over upping the real-deal-blues-rock guy (Jimi) and would do anything to steal back the spotlight. Seymour Duncan was winding special pickups for that generation too.

D
 
K

korus

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Jan 18, 2003
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No, wax potting does not destroy PAF tone. It just makes it sounds less PAF-like.

What sounds like devastating gain-volume live from PA is not as loud on stage today as it was in late 60s.

If it's feeding back then you're way too loud to hear anyone but yourself on stage. It's not that it can't be interesting - playing while NOT hearing and NOT listening to other players you're playing WITH ( as playing AGAINST ) - e.g. Cream did it that way most of the time live, or some forms of jazz - but most of important/loved/memorable music ever to be recorded has been made the other way round - people playing together listening/reacting to each other.

So, if you're not listening to other players you're playing with, no one is listening to you either, so you can wax pot it and don't worry if anyone will notice it at all. They won't, 'cause they can't. You're way too loud.

If in doubt, find someone playing live from 60s 'till now and ask him/her if and how his/her STAGE VOLUME changed since then. And then ask why it changed THAT way.
 
J

JB_007

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Right on Korus, thats a great explanation. Since you dont need to play that loud now days, you can get a real vintage tone out of unpotted pickups and not worrying about being out of control. The reason for unpotted pickups is to recreate the 40yr old PAF vibe the way it was played through unpotted pickups. Potted pickups are ok for modern tones and guitars that easily feed back. But if you A/B the two, you would have to be deaf not to be able to hear the difference. One sounds smooth and modern and the other sounds 3-D and more alive. I think part of the magic is the unpotted pickups and wood selction to go with it.
 
K

korus

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JB_007 said:
Right on Korus, thats a great explanation. Since you dont need to play that loud now days, you can get a real vintage tone out of unpotted pickups and not worrying about being out of control. The reason for unpotted pickups is to recreate the 40yr old PAF vibe the way it was played through unpotted pickups. Potted pickups are ok for modern tones and guitars that easily feed back. But if you A/B the two, you would have to be deaf not to be able to hear the difference. One sounds smooth and modern and the other sounds 3-D and more alive. I think part of the magic is the unpotted pickups and wood selction to go with it.
Click to expand...

Sorry if my irony did not come through. I actually would not use wax potted pickup unless forced to e.g. being payed for.

And non-potted hand wound HB pickups I'm using are even with mismatched coils which even brings some of noise back in for the sake of having what - 4th dimension?! (like going back in time? lol) They do not squeal and they do feed back, just as they're supposed to, both in R9 and in cheap copy. And everything in 3D or 4D, HDTV. No wax in sight.

But, hey - a man got to do what a man got to do. Even if it's wax potting. I guess there must be some applications where nothing else would do.

Me, I'll just pass, both wax and such applications. Anyone else's mileage might,should and will vary, and that at the end makes music interesting/life grand.

In The Light said:
That said, in my experience there are varying degrees of wax potting tonal effects, dependent on how the potting process is done.
Click to expand...

+1.

If only some more humans were able to comprehend there are other values than just 0 and 1. In this case both techs and players. IIRC Zhang wrote on SD forum some time ago ~ "... very thin wax and only 6-7 minutes ... " but I do not have a link, sorry.
 
C

Cottage

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I don't know about a tonal difference, that's a subjective thing, but that nice bloom feedback thing is definately more difficult to attain with the potted Voodoos I presently have. That said, it would have to be something really special for me to consider changing as I quite like the sound of these 59s.
 
E

electricsky

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Nov 14, 2008
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it's really interesting to hear how the tele pu's sound after beeing potted.
it seems to take away some of the clarity.
they seem to breath less.
 
E

efk

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Aren't all of Angus's guitars carrying *unpotted* mid/late 60s T-tops?

Ride On = spectacular! I'll second that w/ the solo on 'The Jack'
 
Z

Zhangliqun

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Again it all depends on how thick the wax and how long in the pot. All potting is not the same.
 
In The Light

In The Light

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AndrewSimon said:
Wow, thank you for that example.

Question:
Can you un-pot a potted pup?

:pop
Click to expand...

Glad that clip was helpful.

Though I've never done this, I believe you can remove excess wax from a pickup by scraping or by applying the heat of a hair drier to melt some off the pup (carefully!), which may enhance vibration and treble overtones. Keep in mind, though, that those overtones are what can cause squeal and feedback too, so it is a fine line between balancing the added responsiveness of unwaxed pickups and not getting squeal, etc. That said, many players experience no problems at all with unpotted pickups, yet some do report extreme squeal that practically renders their pups unusable. It depends a lot on your gain levels, playing volume and amp.

I believe that it's not so much how much wax is used to stop unwanted noise, but rather, how well the wax is placed in crucial points on the pickup. The best potting jobs use the least possible amount wax required to prevent noise. Hope that helps.
 
Z

Zhangliqun

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You can't unpot a potted pickup. The excess wax described above is external to the coil only. The wax penetrates all the way through the coil so the wax that's solidifying the coil and preventing the squeal is still very much there.

Which means that even though you could 'place' wax strategically on the outside of the coil to dampen a cover or below it to dampen magnet/baseplate, there is no way of strategically placing the wax in the coil. Light potting may leave the innermost turns untouched but otherwise it's through-and-through. The difference is in how long you leave it in the pot and how thick/thin the wax is mixed. Too thick or too long dulls the tone.

You may notice a sound difference from removing the extra wax on a covered pu but such a pickup is not the same thing as an unpotted pu.
 
A

AndrewSimon

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Thanks....
I just ordered unpotted Tom Holmes.... so there is no need to unpot my BB's.

Yeah
:foghorn
 
Dub'n 57 Goldtop

Dub'n 57 Goldtop

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bare knuckle pickups, hand wound in the uk. awesome paf clones, and contemporary as well. tim has found a way to wind his pickups unpotted, tested in front of a 100w marshall stack, and no squeel at all. that's what's up. and the tone...
 
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