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Year-by-Year History of the Historic Les Paul Collection

MIKE20

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Aug 11, 2004
Messages
7,688
This is an early '93 pre-Historic; does that look like Eastern Maple to you? It has no mineral flecks, and looked too perfect to me to think it was Eastern, but I'm curious what you guys think.

1004_p15618.jpg

...should be.I have 3 1413 and have no doubt it is.
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
2003 Brazilian count.

Of 4 3001-4 3150 35 of these were R4 Custom Black Beauties=115 BRW R4s
Of 7 3001-7 3707 220 of these were R7 Customs, 4 GTs were 02 specs, 28 were Juniors=455 BRW R7s
Of 8 3001-8 3256 31 of these were Juniors=225 BRW R8s
Of 0 3001-0 3163 50 were G0s, 20 were Specials=93 BRW R0s

R6s and R9s Do not share with other models, so all 148 R6s and all 674 R9s are BRW.
 

delawaregold

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Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
I don't really know what it is; as you mention, it is sometimes almost impossible to tell.
I am also not sure that that Eastern maple was used exclusively during the early 90's. :hank

…and such is, (and has been) my dilemma. Gene Nix, the wood buyer for Gibson
who started in 1994, and reported to Walt Carter, that his team started buying
Western Maple, for the Historic Program in 1994, before this the Custom Shop
was using Eastern Maple.

These precious few sentences in “Keeping the Flame Alive” are the only definitive
statements I can find.

Is Gene Nix correct?
Was his meaning correctly conveyed by Walt Carter?

Amazingly, after all this time, I have not found anyone that will refute or corroborate this.
If indeed this is an accurate statement, then all the Flamed Maple tops in 1993 are
Eastern Maple.

There is not anyone on this Forum that would like further (accurate) clarification
on the matter of Flamed Maple more than me.
 
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ShaneMcCrae

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Joined
Mar 22, 2005
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76
Wow, what a goldmine of information. Thank you, Danelectro, for a great idea.
-Shane
 

DANELECTRO

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Feb 24, 2003
Messages
6,318
Wow, what a goldmine of information. Thank you, Danelectro, for a great idea.
-Shane

Thank you, and thanks go out to all those who have contributed. I know the information is out there, I just thought I'd make an effort to collect it all in one place. Keep the info coming in!
 

kink56

Les Paul Froum Member
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Dec 20, 2004
Messages
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My 93 59 is #9 3100, ie the 100th made and the Warranty card is stamped 11/3/93 which I take to mean November 3rd, here in the UK we would normally read that as 11th March but I'm assuming the usual US convention applies. So if an early November guitar is only number 100 they can't have made that many more in 93? I believe they didn't start full production of the Historic R9 until mid/late 93. Many thanks for the help.

You recently won it on ebay, right?
 

kink56

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Dec 20, 2004
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The first two GC R-0's were hand carried by plane to the Hollywood GC on 28th of Sept. 2002. The remaining 3 went by FedEx truck that same week. They is listed as "LPR0PTKBNH1 LP 60 Plaintop"
Both the first two had Birdseye tops. The other three were plaintops.

And at least ONE of those was BRW....correct?
 

Hammerhead

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Jan 16, 2003
Messages
1,144
Can I lobby for the inclusion of the 2001 Wildwood run of flametop R4s and R6s to be included?

I know some people don't consider them to be Hitsorics, but they come with Historic certificates and are therefore Historics according to Gibson. :)
 

Rumbling_Groover

Les Paul Forum Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2002
Messages
1,089
Can I lobby for the inclusion of the 2001 Wildwood run of flametop R4s and R6s to be included?

I know some people don't consider them to be Hitsorics, but they come with Historic certificates and are therefore Historics according to Gibson. :)

The original Wildwood run was in 2000 and was only about 12 guitars then 25 or so in 2001. I have a Flame Top R6 from the 2000 run.

I think that a dealer specials thread could be in order to cover those amongst others.
 

alexanderja

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Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,379
QUOTE - Reliable
Maple use continued this way until 2003, when the specification
was changed back to Eastern Maple.


Here we go again.......
.... ok, now according to this....and the information we've gathered now in Danelectros chart, 2003's should all have Eastern Maple tops ????
......or am I reading it wrong ?

but, my 2003 Braz has a very dramatic flametop, that most people here have agreed is too flamey to be Eastern.

The two dont tally. :hmm

Im only throwing this up to try to determine whether the information we've got is accurate.

Here's my 2003 Braz -
withplastics.jpg
 

kink56

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Dec 20, 2004
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I say it is EASTERN.



What makes people think that wild flame or even flame or even 1/4 sawn tops with even flame (BBQ) CAN'T be Eastern? Where did we get this MYTH? I know!!! Lesser wood was used on the vintage Bursts. And the BEST Maple was used on the backs of Jazz guitars. Seldom did Les Pauls get perfect 1/4 sawn bookmatched tops, SO we assume that if a Historic has this it MUST be Western!!
Yes is is EASIER to find fantastic flame with Western Maple, but that does not mean you can't find it with Eastern Maple. And now Gibson uses the BEST Eastern Maple for their Historic Les Pauls. According to Gibson ALL Historic Les Pauls have been Eastern Maple since 2003, EXCEPT for those ordered with quilt (Eastern does not produce quilt figuring)

Eastern TENDS to be more irridescent, and 3-D. Western TENDS to look more stable, but that is just the rule, there are exceptions.
 

delawaregold

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Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
The “LINKS” section is fabulous. It has turned out to be
a great reference. I would like to suggest the following link:


Excerpts from the book “Gibson Electrics The Classic Years”
by A.R.Duchossoir


While all of the information is good, the information of particular
interest begins on page 40.

This information, while not specifically about Historics, is foundational
to the development of the Les Paul Model. I thought it would be nice to
have all this information in one place. Thanks.
 
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hanknc

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Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,119
The first two GC R-0's were hand carried by plane to the Hollywood GC on 28th of Sept. 2002. The remaining 3 went by FedEx truck that same week. They is listed as "LPR0PTKBNH1 LP 60 Plaintop"
Both the first two had Birdseye tops. The other three were plaintops.

Do these have the "G" serial number?
 

alexanderja

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Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,379
Without being a pain in the arse,......the wording 'until 2003, when the spec was change back to Eastern' ......could actually mean that the vast majority of the 2003's were not Eastern. Unless that spec change happened at the start of 2003 it doesnt actually mean that 2003's are all Eastern.
The only thing this tells us for sure is that 2004's are Eastern .

For those who are interested, I phoned Gibson today (waste of time as usual) they said that they have no records and cannot verify if Eastern or Western maple was used at 'ANY' time.....just that they have used both throughout.
So fuck knows !!
 

ShaneMcCrae

New member
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
76
and such is, (and has been) my dilemma. Gene Nix, the wood buyer for Gibson
who started in 1994, and reported to Walt Carter, that his team started buying
Western Maple, for the Historic Program in 1994, before this the Custom Shop
was using Eastern Maple.

I took a wood class from Gene Nix, last may, at Gibson. He said then that they buy from several sources and that nobody could tell just from looking where any given piece of wood came from.
Interestingly he also rejected the use of the term "flame maple" saying was only accurate when describing wood that had been wrapped in fuel soaked cloth and actually burnt to enhance the appearance. What we commonly call flamed, he said was properly called figured.
Anyhow, once again, this is an amazing thread.
-Shane
 

delawaregold

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Jun 27, 2005
Messages
1,814
I took a wood class from Gene Nix, last may, at Gibson. He said then that they buy from several sources and that nobody could tell just from looking where any given piece of wood came from.

I find it amazing that in 2007 Mr. Nix says that no one can tell where
the wood came from just by looking, but in 1994 he could tell that
original bursts were both Hard and Soft Maple, just by looking.
I have long suspected that the quote by Mr. Nix in
“Keeping the Flame Alive” was very self serving, and allowed Gibson
to go from about 35 Flame Maple Tops per month to a few hundred
Flamed Maple Tops per month, by making it acceptable for the Custom
Shop to substitute Soft Western Maple. Even though EVERYONE at Gibson
knew that the Specification for the Maple Top, always was Hard Rock Maple.
As far as Gibson not knowing where the wood comes from. Every Gibson
Guitar is a “Smartwood” Guitar. Part of what that means is that every piece
of wood used to make the guitar is documented, and can pass the scrutiny
of the Rainforest Alliance’s Certification and Verification Service.
Gibson, whether they admit it or not, knows where every piece of wood it
uses comes from.
 

kink56

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Dec 20, 2004
Messages
7,672
Wow, those R4s do not show up in the catalog until 97. These must be pretty rare!! 780? They sure must have made a LOT of R4s between the GTs and the Customs in 1995? I really DOUBT they made that many R4s!! They probably did not even make that many R9s! (usually the most numerous in most years, except 2001 and 2002) Which raises the question....I know that since at LEAST 1999 each series R2, R4, R6, R7 etc had its own sequential SN. That is there could be a 4 9001, 6 9001, 7 9001, 9 9001, 0 9001 and so on. But is it possible that ALL Rs intermixed within the SAME sequence in the early/mid 90s? That is 4 5001, 6 5002, 7 5003, 8 5004, 9 5005, 0 5006, like this?
 
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