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Anyone replace the Grovers with Klusons on their 335?

Wilko

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Shitty first post. For one thing:

I've changed from Grovers to Kluson and Vice versa for over 30 years and never had a problem with the screws lining up. I'm a liar?

Tone, if you don't understand how added mass can alter tone, then you should just keep your mouth shut because it's proven physics.

F*ck off.
 
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zacknorton

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Aug 26, 2011
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I've done that swap and had the holes line up perfectly....more than once....and will have to echo wilko's experience.

There is virtually NOTHING different about the performance between grovers or kluson tuners.

They both work well. If your guitar won't stay in tune with kluson's then you've got a problem with the nut or the bridge saddles.

The grovers are are way heavier....and the kluson's are susceptible to the gear cover loosening which makes them function poorly. The added weight to the headstock can give you a change in your guitar's voice. It might not be a night and day change but it's noticeable.

other than that....just go with what you like the look of. with the right tuner bushings either way is fine.
 

PaulLaRue

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Jul 2, 2003
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Just to clearify, I can buy modern Klusons to replace my 05 ES-335 Grovers and the Kluson bottom mounting screw hole will line up with the old Grover hole?
I am not sure if some of the talk was about "50's style" Klusons sold as a different model?
Been wanting to install Klusons on that guitar. Is there a specific Kluson Model # I should know about?
I have been to their site and they make vintage style & stamped steel styles.
Thanks.
 

1jamman

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Feb 28, 2013
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If you are doing a direct swap , IIRC which Grover's are stock, I think you need to get an adapter bushing for the existing whole they Grover's needed to be installed with . It downsizes the hole so the Klusons fit correctly . IIRC Grover's use a 10mm sized hole . But I only read all the posts here quickly so If I missed some info ... I stand corrected
Then you just need to drill the 1 hole for the Klusons tuners 2nd screw on the back , But you could try it and see if it holds and is stable before doing it . If it works and stays in tune . you could skip that and if in the future do it if you find it's needed ...
 

Bluespower

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Feb 26, 2003
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here we go...

I have a late 60s ES 335TD that some one in 1970 or so had installed a set of Grover Futuros.
And,
I have an original set of Kluson Deluxe double ring tuners.
When I attempted to change the Grovers out and reinstall the Klusons I found that original Kluson bushings wouldn't fit in the holes. The diameter is too wide. I believe the wood has swelled over the years.

In my parts drawer I have a few different sets of bushings. I found a set that fit around the peg and also in the existing hole so Im using those.

I'd like to use the original bushings as well but don't want to force them in the holes.

Suggestions? Any one ever had this problem?
 

Minibucker

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Jan 12, 2003
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I did years ago with a regular USA ES335 DOT, mainly because I felt it was a bit neck heavy. I went with the Grover Klusons with the screw-in bushings. Didn't really notice tonal differences but it was a bit lighter at the headstock. I ended up not really getting along with that guitar because of the thin neck profile, so I sold it.

I see a lot about people replacing Klusons with Grovers on LP's not just for better tuning stability, but they feel the extra mass adds to sustain and such. My '13 R8 alreasdy resonates so well, especially along the neck that I wouldn't want to mess with it by reaming and putting Grovers on.
 

Gold Tone

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This is an old thread but the same incorrect understanding keeps coming up year after year. Someone please explain what they mean by better tuning stability when changing tuners for said reason. It’s not clear what is meant since there is no association between tuner change and tuning stability. Do people mean finer tuning ability with higher gear ratio? That is not stability, that’s tuning ease.

Please explain

Thank you
 
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Gold Tone

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...Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, changed their keys out to Grovers because they held tune so much better, especially when you were bending strings. There was all kinds of pressure from bandmates to "replace those stinkin' Klusons!"

This for example, not trying to call out one of our long time LPFers, just as an example. There is no relationship between tuning stability and Kluson vs Grovers. These are “worm gears” you’d need an insane amount of force on the string to pull a worm gear! You’ll break the string 1st, if you had an unbreakable string you’d bend the tuner post or snap the headstock before that worm gear would move.

Tuners don’t work the way people are thinking here.

The issue with tuning stability is 100% always nut needing attention and/or method of winding strings on tuner post (too many windings allowing for slack and tuning instability)
 

Minibucker

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This is an old thread but the same incorrect understanding keeps coming up year after year. Someone please explain what they mean by better tuning stability when changing tuners for said reason. It’s not clear what is meant since there is no association between tuner change and tuning stability. Do people mean finer tuning ability with higher gear ratio? That is not stability, that’s tuning ease.

Please explain

Thank you
I was just relaying what I read/heard but frankly I never noticed one staying in tune any better than the other. Maybe because the Kluson types I was using were in pretty good shape and not 40 yrs old and worn out or something. Even though the grovers certainly felt more sturdy if that contributes to anything over time.
 

Gold Tone

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The tuners on my original 1957 TV Junior are the original strip tuners. The guitar has had heavy use for 63 years, tuners are stiff, plating worn off, one of the tuning pegs is a bit bent. I gigged that guitar many times including several years in a Stones tribute band.

It holds tune perfectly
 

Minibucker

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The tuners on my original 1957 TV Junior are the original strip tuners. The guitar has had heavy use for 63 years, tuners are stiff, plating worn off, one of the tuning pegs is a bit bent. I gigged that guitar many times including several years in a Stones tribute band.

It holds tune perfectly
As I said, I've never had any tuning issues that I attributed to Kluson vs. Grovers, but many claim they did. Grovers definitely feel finer, or easier as you mentioned.
 

Gold Tone

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Not really directing question to you...just throwing it out there for all. Wanted to bring it up so people would rethink the conclusion that tuning instability is somehow related to tuners

Agreed, Grovers can feel much smoother
 

Minibucker

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Have to admit, aesthetically I love the classic old Klusons too so I prefer to go with them if I can. My '13 R8 came with I think the TonePros made ones? they had the rounded post heads which just looked odd, so I changed them to Gotoh-made ones. Petty maybe but the Gotohs have always held up well for me.

Has different resonant/dampening/etc. qualities between the two ever been a factor for you? I noticed it on a Les Paul, but not really on an ES.
 

Gold Tone

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Gotoh Klusons are very high quality Japanese made, no wonder you like them...me too. Very nice

I notice a big difference in tone between the two. Both are good...I have Grovers on my main gigging R9 from 1999. The Grovers have a “harder” sound in a good way. The two are quite different in two ways that are tone effecting; the mass difference, and the way the tuners are held in place (Kluson only by the 2 screws, Grovers 1 screw and clamped on tight by the screw in bushing). It’s the way that they are held on that also has a big effect on tone

I like them both but prefer Kluson in general. Though, as I said, my main gigger is Grover’d
 

Bob Womack

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This for example, not trying to call out one of our long time LPFers, just as an example. There is no relationship between tuning stability and Kluson vs Grovers. These are “worm gears” you’d need an insane amount of force on the string to pull a worm gear! You’ll break the string 1st, if you had an unbreakable string you’d bend the tuner post or snap the headstock before that worm gear would move.

Tuners don’t work the way people are thinking here.

The issue with tuning stability is 100% always nut needing attention and/or method of winding strings on tuner post (too many windings allowing for slack and tuning instability)
I should have been more clear: I was speaking to perception, not reality. My '74 LP still has its Klusons and tunes up just fine. The inevitability I mentioned was from peer pressure. Another factor in tuning stability is whether you tune tune upwards or downwards to pitch.

Bob
 

Minibucker

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Gotoh Klusons are very high quality Japanese made, no wonder you like them...me too. Very nice

I notice a big difference in tone between the two. Both are good...I have Grovers on my main gigging R9 from 1999. The Grovers have a “harder” sound in a good way. The two are quite different in two ways that are tone effecting; the mass difference, and the way the tuners are held in place (Kluson only by the 2 screws, Grovers 1 screw and clamped on tight by the screw in bushing). It’s the way that they are held on that also has a big effect on tone

I like them both but prefer Kluson in general. Though, as I said, my main gigger is Grover’d
Yeah, to me it was akin to the differences between a heavy tailpiece and an aluminum one, less apparent on a 335, but moreso on a Les Paul. The Grovers more focused in the lower-mids/mids and immediate on the attack, the Klusons more open and maybe a bit more 'elastic' on the attack. Probably depends on the guitar's natural qualities as well.
 
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