Anyone replace the Grovers with Klusons on their 335?

Broly · May 31, 2007

Hi, I have a Memphis 335 and was wondering how difficult it would be to replace the stock Grovers with the vintage Kluson type tuners? Will the single screw hole on the grovers match up with the bottom Kluson screw hole? If so, I imagine that I would just have to drill the top holes???

Also, the Grover ferrul bushings looks wider on the headstock face than the Klusons. Will this leave a ring mark if the Klusons are smaller?

Any info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Broly

pit_s_xroad · Jun 1, 2007

Hi,

that's what I did... nothing needs to be done except drilling the hole for the second mounting screw on the flipside of the headstock. This is very easy to be done... just mount the Kluson to the headstock with first screw in the already existing hole and the tuner's mounting plate shows you where the second one needs to be drilled automatically...

I think there are some slight traces visible of the Grover bushings... I don't now out of my mind and I have the guitar not handy (I am at work)... but I don't mind them...

You have to decide for yourself...

before the mod:

after the mod:

I would do it always again... looks, feels and sounds much better...
Greetings

PIT... :salude

young angus · Jun 1, 2007

As far as I know Grovers and Kluson normally don´t have the same size. I´ve heard many speak about the need for drilling a slightly larger hole before they could install their Grovers - if they had Klusons before. It would make the hole slightly too large if one do it the other way. Grover, however, have Kluson style tuners with the same size as their ordinary Rotomatics (Grovers 135N).

Bob Womack · Jun 1, 2007

Not to be negative at all, but this subject fascinates me. I tried to ignore it but it was like trying to keep your eyes off a roadside wreck on the way home - try it some time. Anyway, what fascinates me is that for years, it was virtually impossible to find a used Gibson with the Klusons still on it. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, changed their keys out to Grovers because they held tune so much better, especially when you were bending strings. There was all kinds of pressure from bandmates to "replace those stinkin' Klusons!"

Now, mind you, for some reason, I never replaced mine. Just stubborn, I guess. But when I wrote a review of the ES335DOT reissue recently, I wrote that I thought inclusion of the Grovers was an interesting nod to inevitability.

It's funny how style changes everything! :2cool

Bob

lpnv59 · Jun 1, 2007

I put a set of Klusons on a J Page CA. It was a piece o' cake! Its true that the hole is larger to accomodate the Grover shaft. But Gibson doesn't drill a larger peg hole all the way through. Just the area that is necessary. So the Kluson bushings fit perfect. On the backside, the one Grover mounting screw lines up with the bottom Kluson mount. So you only have to drill the second if the guitar came stock with Grovers. The Page is made to look like the Grovers were added. So the 2nd hole was already drilled...thank you Gibson. I went back to the Grovers because they are by far more functionally superior to Klusons.

Bluespower · Jun 1, 2007

the Klusons open up the sound.
A matter of taste, and a noticable difference in tone. Grovers were more focused and solid, Klusons more airy and vibrant to my ears.

gadzooka · Jun 1, 2007

I have had Gibsons with Grovers and with Klusons. Tuning stability has never been an issue with either one. Bob, you are obviously not making up stories, but I have not had any functionality issue with Klusons. Appearance-wise, I prefer Klusons (on a Gibson, anyway).

Cream Fan · Jun 1, 2007

OLD Grovers sound better than new ones. I bought a set of patent pendings to put on my Clapton SG, which had Klusons and the tone is much, much better, as is the tuning.

Conversely, I had a set of Korean Grovers on a LP Standard and I didn't like the tone. Too congested, if that makes any sense.

If you tap on the old Grovers you get a "Ping." Tap on the new ones and you get a "Clack." The metal they're using is very dead sounding compared to the old ones. The old ones are also slightly lighter, too. It's too bad, because even the Korean Grovers hold the tuning better.

RnB · Jun 1, 2007

I replaced the Grovers on my '85 Dot. I was an easy switch! However, I used the Kluson Style tuners (Gibson) that have the screw-down bushings, instead of the press-in type. Mine had some fairly big rings ('footprint') that were left behind by the old Grover washers on the hdstk, & I didn't want to look at them.

I would think that if you were going to use the Vintage Style type of Kluson's, that you would need 'Conversion Bushings' to take up the difference in the tuner hole sizing, since Grovers are a 10mm (3/8") bore, and the vintage style are 11/32" in diameter. Whereas, the screw-down type fit right in w/o conversion bushings!

TonePros make both types for retrofitting you guitars. Since the have bought the rights to 'Kluson', they have been re-designed for the better.... http://www.toneproskluson.com/models.html

RnB · Jun 1, 2007

Duplicate Post...

bluespckr · Jun 1, 2007

Bob Womack said:
Anyway, what fascinates me is that for years, it was virtually impossible to find a used Gibson with the Klusons still on it. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, changed their keys out to Grovers because they held tune so much better, especially when you were bending strings. There was all kinds of pressure from bandmates to "replace those stinkin' Klusons!"
Bob

Man, that's exactly what I was going to say, as I read through the posts. I have changed the tuners on every Gibson I owned to Grovers, beginning in '75. I always thought the stock tuners were cheapo looking and that Grovers just looked better, and did the job better.

So, when I took the leap to buy my ES-335 earlier this year, I was ecstatic to think the thing came when Grovers already on the pegboard. So now, we have folks wanting to change them back to Klusons. Go figure. I'll leave mine be, with the Grovers.

pit_s_xroad · Jun 1, 2007

...with the exception of my R9 I always have equipped all my Gibsons with the vintage type press-in Klusons... :spabout

CUSTOM, STANDARD, GEM, and an SG... all with the conversion-bits... only the ES335 do not need them... you can mount them out of the package with the stock-bits...

They sound the most open... no screwing from the top and the bottom, so the headstock-wood gets not "squeezed"... they are leight-weight and look the best... for me... :ganz

Tuning and handling never has been an issue for me...

I never understood why people went for these heavy Rotomatics... they like their design in general much better than those boring Schaller stuff, but on the guitar they look too mighty IMHO...

Greetings
PIT... :salude

Broly · Jun 1, 2007

Wow...didn't mean to stir up a debate here, but you all have brought up excellent points. My reason for wanting to change them is that I think they look much better than the "heavy" looking Grovers. I had Klusons on my R9 without any tuning stability problems.

It seems as though several here agree that changing the tuneers causes a noticible change in tone. I think my guitars tone is awsome as is, so maybe I shouldn't mess with a good thing ???:wow

I'll have to give this some more thought.......:hmm

Thanks for the replies fellas.

plaintop60 · Jun 1, 2007

There were definitely problems with Klusons. They were poorly made and wore out quickly. Back in the 60's the only logical choice for most people was to switch to Grovers. The added mass of the Grovers does rob the guitar of some of it's natural dynamics and alter the harmonic structure of the guitar's timbre, but it replaces what it steals in tone, for focus and sustain. The Gotoh Kluson copies on the other had are as good as any die cast machines and they last much longer than Klusons. What's nice about them is they don't add excessive mass to the headstock, which allows the instrument to sound more naturally resonant, harmonically rich dynamic.

RnB · Jun 2, 2007

The Gotoh Kluson copies on the other had are as good as any die cast machines and they last much longer than Klusons.

I put a set of the Gotoh replacements on my 330, & although they function OK, I found that the string posts aren't all that long. Consequently, the string does not wind down the post, givin a steeper break angle at the nut.

TonePros has added some length to the posts for more height and packed the innards w/ titanium parts w/ a 16:1ratio! For the weight-conscious...You stand to drop 5 or 6 oz. by losing the Grovers. The coloring of the buttons is also a creamier color rather than greenish button coloring on the Gotohs.

young angus · Jun 2, 2007

I can be wrong here, since every brand probably make many different sizes for their replacement tuners.

But as far as I know the Gotoh Kluson style tuners normally have a 11/32" peghead hole, which makes them to direct replacements for Klusons vintage style tuners - no need for drilling when swapping out the old Klusons.

For Grovers Rotomatics it was necessary to drill slightly bigger holes. Today however Grover makes a Kluson style replacement for guitars that has already been drilled for Grovers (135N) The hole size for those tuners are 25/64 - like Rotomatics.

As said; I can be wrong since there are many different sizes, but if a guitar has been drilled for Grover Rotomatics, or had them stock, Grovers 135N seems to be a better choice if one wants a vintage look - because they are 25/64, like Grover Rotomatics.

lpnv59 · Jun 2, 2007

I don't know about the newer, imported Grovers. But with the older Rotomatics, it wasn't necessary to drill out the entire hole. The '60 burst I now own, had Grovers when the previous owner toured with it. Who ever did the install left 3/16th's to a 3/4 inch of the hole at the top untouched. This way, the original bushings still fit. Thats how the Page reissues are routed and I assume the Rossingtons. But usually back in the 70's, the practice was to just take a reamer and widen entire hole. To go back to Klusons, you had to either space out the original bushings with a little tape. Or have them plugged and redrilled. Usually the latter if the hole was too hogged out.

I remember going back and forth on my '59. If I took it out of retirement, I'd go back to the Grovers because I liked the tone and playing feel. New Klusons IMO are functionally better than the old ones. Better turn ratio and smoother, more accurate action. The old ones had dead spots, for the lack of a better term. You would turn the peg and the pitch wouldn't change.....sorry, but the old ones are nowhere near as good as Grovers. The new Klusons are good enough to not change anything.

Cream Fan · Jun 2, 2007

Billy, you meant "3/16ths to 1/4 inch" right? 3/4 of an inch is more than the thickess of the entire headstock.

And a comment about the tone. I do believe they add focus and sustain and may be another reason people made the change back then. We have to remember, a LOT of the recorded tones of those famous axes were with Grovers installed.

lpnv59 · Jun 2, 2007

Cream Fan said:
Billy, you meant "3/16ths to 1/4 inch" right? 3/4 of an inch is more than the thickess of the entire headstock.

Yes, thats what I mean't. But thinking about it, a 1/4" is too much. On mine, it looks like about 1/8th - 3/16th's.

Cream Fan said:
And a comment about the tone. I do believe they add focus and sustain and may be another reason people made the change back then. We have to remember, a LOT of the recorded tones of those famous axes were with Grovers installed.

Thats an excellent point. In fact I'd say practically everyone of those solos that people hang on every note to, those notes were tuned to pitch by a Grover Rotomatic.

jp79652 · Jun 26, 2017

Hello Everyone.... I just joined this site so I could set the record straight on this matter...

I recently ordered a pair of both Kluson Tone Pros (close outs, yes I know they do not make them anymore), as well as a set of Grover Deluxe 135's, to replace the Grover locking tuners on my 2017 SG Traditional.

I hate to break this to you, but the lower holes do NOT line up on either one.

Whoever is saying they do is lying.

Luckily I had a set of Grover Tune-o-matics that I could throw on there and get away from those ridiculous locking tuners.

Looks great, stays in tune great.

One of these days I might go through the hassle of filling in the old hole and drilling another hole right next to it, but for now, I am going to stick with the Grovers....

I have 20 Gibsons so I don't need a lecture.

All this BS about tone ridiculous.

If you are splitting hairs like that, you should probably take some time and learn to play better.

I have had both Klusons and Grovers (I have 3 SGs)... you can't tell a diddly shit of a difference, and the Grovers are way higher quality.

Cheers!

Anyone replace the Grovers with Klusons on their 335?

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