• Guys, we've spent considerable money converting the Les Paul Forum to this new XenForo platform, and we have ongoing monthly operating expenses. THE "DONATIONS" TAB IS NOW WORKING, AND WE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY DONATIONS YOU CAN MAKE TO KEEP THE LES PAUL FORUM GOING! Thank you!

Question For Phil47UK

hutman777

New member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
367
watchtower , ladyland ...know the riffs, slide an all .. got the wawa , reverb . bic-lighter, played it live a 100 times,I always play the cords 1st. when i pick up a acoustic 2 c if its it tune NEVER get it down ... fuckin song is voodoo 2 me an inself is ART
 

blackie

New member
Joined
Dec 18, 2002
Messages
45
Phil's certainly right about the musicality. Learning lines by rote and repetitive physical execution so you can play them really fast won't result in anything musical or magical.

I may be wrong, but I think the original poster was asking in so many words was is it the case that most people are physically capable of playing extremely fast, say at an Yngvie pace, given enough practice.

My answer would be no, for the same reason that most people wouldn't be able to be run as fast or jump as high world class athletes given enough proper training. Some people have faster reflexes and/or a higher concentration of what they call "quick-twitch" muscle, whether it's in the legs or in the wrist or finger muscles in the forearm.

Everyone can get fast-ER than they are, but not everyone can get 'guitar-athlete' fast.

The Stairway To Heaven solo, at least the studio version, isn't exactly slow but it really isn't all that fast. What makes it work is, as others have said, the touch, tone, phrasing, note choice, etc., the subtle things that make it musical and not just a mechanical series of notes being pumped through a rosewood production line.

Being able to play guitar-hero fast is a plus, but it should be seen as just one tool in the arsenal. You have to be able to make the listener FEEL something -- otherwise no matter how fast you play, you're nothing more than just another act at a freak show.

(It's also possible to overreact in the other direction as some do, who then cop the attitude that it is always wrong to play really fast...)

There was a great quote from Zappa that summed up guitar playing in Frank's pithy and imitable style somewhere....something along the lines of ......Guitar playing, as currently understood (circa 1988) has more in common with an Olympic-style competition than music............
 

Kluson

Active member
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
1,317
Phil,
you are a real credit to this forum, your posts always have something for everyone. I wish I had had a teacher like you when I firsty started instead of destroying all my records stoping and starting them trying to copy the guitar players of those old dark days.
Your students must be inspired by you, Not only musically but spiritually, sorry if that's a bit deep
Cheers !
 

phil47uk

New member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
6,534
Phil,
you are a real credit to this forum, your posts always have something for everyone. I wish I had had a teacher like you when I firsty started instead of destroying all my records stoping and starting them trying to copy the guitar players of those old dark days.
Your students must be inspired by you, Not only musically but spiritually, sorry if that's a bit deep
Cheers !

Sorry Kluson.
Haven't been in the woodshed for ages and didn't see your post.
Well I do try my hardest to inspire, and hopefully it rubs off on some ocassions. Even though most people think I'm a complete eccentric nut, including my wife and my own kids.:laugh2:

One of my pupils just won 'Guitar Techniques Magazine' here in the UK, young guitar player of the year award and a place at Brighton music college for three years, so I'm really pleased about that.. Mind you like everything in life. You win some .. You loose some and for every guy like that, you get a dozen who wont stay the course.
I think if pupils can see your burning passion for music and your guitar, it gives them something to aim for, and as I say to just about every pupil I have ever had..Christ! If I can do it. Anyone can. :laugh2:

Phil.
 
B

Banker

Guest
Phil, you anywhere near London? If so, can you drop me a PM please........?
 

Groover

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
614
Lives in the backwoods ' Dorset' but thats nearly 'UptNorth' for you !!:rofl
 
B

Banker

Guest
Lives in the backwoods ' Dorset' but thats nearly 'UptNorth' for you !!:rofl

Groover, no matter how I twist it I can't work that one out.

I'm trying to find an old-school guitar teacher in London (speaks English and doesn't shred)......I'm kinda tired of my playing and need to stretch out in a different direction.

I guess I'll keep looking :salude
 

Raptor

New member
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
488
Well I stumbled on to this thread simply because I saw it was addressed to Phil, and I love his sense of humour and his posts. The thread has been fantastic.
I have had similar dilemmas both personally and with other guitarists. I am not offering anything new, rather my own experiences along the same lines. I have been playing for over 30 years, and was in a regularly gigging cover band for over 10 years straight. I can read music, and tab, but I am weak on theory (being self taught). I can learn most leads and solos from tab or music with practice, but stick mainly to playing rhythmn. I can sit down with a track from the JamZone and squeeze a passable take out of my guitars, but only by repitition and practice of what sounds and feels right to me. I would fill my pants if asked to sit in and play solos on an improvised jam.
To the point. We had three songs that were part of our sets. "She Sells Sanctuary", "Take It On the Run", and "Down on the Corner". I was the guitarist who played electric on Sanctuary. I learned the parts and the solo note for note. The problem is that I found that I was just playing guitar, not making music. I was so wrapped up in counting notes and trying to make things perfect that I didn't enjoy it. One gig, in the middle of the song I got distracted and realized I missed a note. I realized that no one noticed, or winced, and it felt better to me. So I altered the solo parts a bit, just enough to keep the feel and spirit of the song, but to something that I found easier to play and remember. It turned into an extended version of the song as we all got into it so much and the audience loved it. I was making music now, and not just playing guitar. :wail
The second song, "Take It on the Run", I was playing acoustic rhythmn, and I knew there was no way I could match the speed strumming during the solo. Again, I did my best and no one ever complained about it. I had 'made the song my own' and no one ever said that we didn't do a good job on it. :applaude
The last song, almost drove a guitarist we had nuts. He was on acoustic, and was determined to match every up and down stroke exactly like CCR did. He could do it for about 30 seconds and then would lose it. I tried to show him that the song sounded fine using a couple of strumming variations, but he would not give it up. Finally one practice he threw his guitar down and quit. The thing I remembered the most about his attempts was that he sounded mechanical and forced. He didn't sound like John Fogarty, nor did he sound like himself. Those incidents helped me get over my quest for perfection.
I don't think there is anything wrong with learning to play a passage note for note, for personal satisfaction, or for practice. Some people, and bands can pull it off really well. But if you are perfect, note for note, and someone else in the band isn't, it can be a trainwreck. So I stopped trying to sound like anyone else a long time ago. Sounding like myself is far more satisfying and fun. Just watch one of the singing reality shows some night like 'American Idol'. Those who try to sing a song exactly like the original never pull it off and sound fake. Those who take chances and make the song their own give the best performances.
So thanks to Phil for a great thread, and to the others for the advice and inspiration. I would love to sit down with a case of ale with Phil and get some lessons, too bad I don't get over to the UK anymore. :salude
To Mlongano, keep playing and practicing it. I hope you get it down for your own satisfaction.
 

Groover

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
614
Groover, no matter how I twist it I can't work that one out.

I'm trying to find an old-school guitar teacher in London (speaks English and doesn't shred)......I'm kinda tired of my playing and need to stretch out in a different direction.

I guess I'll keep looking :salude

Sorry Banker my poor attempt at a warped sense of humour. Seriously I think Phil lives in either Devon or Dorset can't remember which ! I know where your coming from tho' I have thought about travelling down from Sheffield and turning up on Phils doorstep. I think good teachers are hard to find and from Phils threads he does seem to tick the right boxes.

Good luck on your quest:salude
 

phil47uk

New member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
6,534
Hi guys,
Sorry. I haven't been in the woodshed for a week or so and didn't see the posts.
Yes, Groover is correct, I live in Dorset down by the coast near Lyme Regis.Any further south and you'd be in the sea. I unfortunately I don't get up to London much these days. (I’m so disillusioned when I do).

Music to me is pure passion and should reflect the very soul of the person playing it. Off course this is difficult to do and one has to be in the right frame of mind. People often say to me. Hey Phil, you were just coasting the first six numbers, then suddenly it's like someone flicked a switch and you went up two gears. I know exactly what they mean and annoyingly there is nothing I can do about it. It's all in ones head.

I try to get my pupils to jam along with me on say a minor blues. Many people can usually play the notes in the right order..But with no feel.
For a blues for instance, I then tell them to try to imagine the backing chords as setting the scene a hundred years ago on a hot and sweaty night somewhere down say in Alabama.. The guy has just come home on a Friday night from picking cotton.. That's all he ever does, and that's all he's ever going to do.He calls through the open door.. “Hello, I'm home”.. No answer coz the wife is too busy putting the kids to bed.. He then shouts back the same thing, this time with irritation in his voice.. He's going out tonight to drink with the guys, so confidence wells up in his voice... But then he stops and reflects.. Back to the same old dirge on Monday, and the voicing becomes more of a hopeless sigh.. The wife suddenly screams back an octave up.... “So what the fuck do you think I have been doing all day then?”.. “Nothing!” An argument ensues and she ends up crying....And so the story unfolds.........All the time the backing chords drone the heat of the night and the repetitive despair.

Yeah it's a story, and you have to try and tell and live it.
Not easy, when you have just walked into a club and people are talking everywhere about how they missed the bus for work that day. But like a good actor, you must try and shut them up and turn their heads... Hey! You are going to listen to me!

I try and psychologically wind my pupils up.. I get them to look at me in the eyes and pretend I have just beaten their Mum up... Go on.. Look at me.. What are going to do about it?.. Whack the bastard !!! Then I want them to imagine going over to Mum to comfort her.. Be tender...
This is not easy with most people as they are scared to let go. They feel self conscious.
The difference between a good guitarist and a great one.. The good guitarist is consistently good, but the great ones go in spurts and phases, and when they are on top of it sound like a million dollars. It’s not about old wood and PAFS. OK they are a bonus, but anyone thinking otherwise is seriously missing the point.

OK.. The rhythm thing.. I learned a good trick from a flamenco player back in Madrid during the 60’s. It’s all about tensioning the right hand ( If you are right handed of course ). Take a pick and hold it lightly between your finger and thumb.. Then waggle it…. Plenty of give? Now do the same thing but squeeze the pick a bit harder… More tension and the pick becomes more rigid.. The secret is not about hitting the guitar harder, it’s about tensioning the right hand. You can then keep up the same velocity, but bring it down from a roar to a whisper without loosing continuity.

All musical genres have a history. I get my pupils to try to listen to music from all around the world… South America… Hear the animals of the jungle within the rhythms. Listen to the French and black influences of Cajun music.
Use tension and release.. Try the chord of say F or Fmaj 7th.. Now play F Lydian. F G A B C D E F against it. All the notes fit, but one clashes and causes tension… The B. That’s because it’s the flattened fifth against the F chord. Play around with that note to give you a feeling of slight unease which then suddenly resolves to a calm when you lean on the other notes within the scale.. Bernstein used it to great effect in West Side story.

Yeah..You have to think of your guitar as a palette of colours, and the various chords and scales depict the shades and tonal makeup of what you are trying to paint.

It’s not easy, but if one comes at it from a different angle, rather than the usual guitar mag.. This fits that scenario, you’d be surprised what one can achieve.

A good musician should be like a good actor.. Just watch this clip from Goodfellas of Joe Pesci.
Brilliant! The guy turns what is a nice cosy fun drinking situation with freinds to something extremely menacing with the space of a minute. He ad- libbed most of this so I read somwhere.
Listen to the inflections. Watch the hand and body movements. Now that's acting.
He steals the whole scene..And that's what one has to try to do musicaly to an audience. Then as quitely as you stole the scene, lay back and give someone else center stage..Like with good actors, it's not about how fast and loud you say it. It's how you say it and mean what you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twW_riHWz_4



And Salieri's description of Mozart's music in the film Amadeus. I love this bit in the film and the piece too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxgZcMGmkkI

Phil.:)
 
Last edited:
Top