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  1. #41

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by honk-squawk-wail
    Be carefull! Whenever one dives into the `anti-historic` pond the thread eventually gets snuffed! Corporate-sponsored censorship? I wonder.

    Btw, I agree! Old wood, hide glue, long tenons. Hogwash. ;)
    Nah, people just get inflamed about trivial aspects of their guitar's construction. You know, if you look at what's happening in the bass guitar world, it's pretty crazy: Companies like Conklin have overcome the engineering and playability issues of building 9 string 36 fret neck-through variable scale-length basses (string tension!), meanwhile we're still freaking out if our guitar's binding isn't the same thickness all the way around the top of the body.

  2. #42
    Les Paul Forum Member ashbass's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by honk-squawk-wail
    Ashbass; as far as my `hogwash` statement... personally I just don`t buy into the `can`t beat a `59 LP` opinions that are often written here. What`s to back up? I have tone opinions...and so do others.
    Saying "personally I just don`t buy into the `can`t beat a `59 LP` opinions that are often written here" and "Old wood, hide glue, long tenons. Hogwash" are two different things.

    Personal opinions when stated as such are what this place is about. If you don't see the difference in presentation of your ideas in the two bits above then oh well.
     

    Now get this...
    We feed the rats to the cats,
    and the cats to the rats,
    and get the cat skins for nothing.

     

  3. #43

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    But if Hamer can cut a neck joint that is so snug you can lift the guitar by the neck and shake it without the glue, why can't Gibson? That photo is mind numbing.

  4. #44
    Les Paul Forum Member V!N's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    You want the tenon ? You can't handle the tenon ! :dude





    http://www.instituteofnoise.com/foru...TOPIC_ID=19867

  5. #45

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Well here is the bottom end of long and short tenon...


    Want a Gibson and don't care about short and long stuff get a standard or a classic

    Want a Gibson guitar that is close to the 50s LP you fell in love with on the Beano album...go Historic

    Want a Gibson guitar that is close to the 50s LP you fell in love with on the Beano album but you can't afford a Gibson at all...

    GO JAPANESE

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1

    :dude

  6. #46

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage
    But if Hamer can cut a neck joint that is so snug you can lift the guitar by the neck and shake it without the glue, why can't Gibson? That photo is mind numbing.
    Is that mind-numbing photo even of a Gibson? There's no way to tell.

  7. #47
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    First welcome to the forum KRZLP...don't run off cause of the banter your thread caused, as you can tell, its a touchy subject, and people on this forum are very opinionated and don't pull their punches. With that said, most are extremely knowledgeable and like to share their opinions. This forum kicks ass and Les Pauls kick ass, regardless of their tenon. I do think there is some general truth to the fact that the longer tenon may add slightly to sustain, it makes sense. But there are so many factors that go into a well resonating and a guitar that sounds "alive". The wood, the pickups, pots, etc.. I just have a regular Standard, but oh what a Standard. It is very loud and resonant played unamplified, clear and sustains for days plugged in. I would not go for the you need a historic cause they are better line. I can pull off all those classic tones that I love with my Standard. I'm not anti historic either, I will have one someday, but will NEVER part with my Standard cause its just incredible. I will add that I think Gibson has been building some killer instruments over the last few years and I would think you would have a better chance of getting a winner by picking from recent vintage. I had a 91 Custom that was lame compared to my Standard. I think the recent Standards have a more vintage look and feel to them as well and it sounds like that what you want.

  8. #48
    Les Paul Forum Member rays44's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by V!N
    You want the tenon ? You can't handle the tenon ! :dude





    http://www.instituteofnoise.com/foru...TOPIC_ID=19867
    Positively stunning

  9. #49
    Les Paul Forum Member 55Custom's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    A good LP Standard can do what a Historic can do. It's just harder to find them, depending on what you're listening for. Also, Standards offer the traditional neck sizes and flametops at a resonable price.
    What's interesting about Historics, is that despite the talk of how good they are, there's a ton of them that end up right back on the market.

  10. #50
    Les Paul Forum Member bluespckr's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by lefty64
    First welcome to the forum KRZLP...don't run off cause of the banter your thread caused, as you can tell, its a touchy subject, and people on this forum are very opinionated and don't pull their punches. With that said, most are extremely knowledgeable and like to share their opinions. This forum kicks ass and Les Pauls kick ass, regardless of their tenon. I do think there is some general truth to the fact that the longer tenon may add slightly to sustain, it makes sense. But there are so many factors that go into a well resonating and a guitar that sounds "alive". The wood, the pickups, pots, etc.. I just have a regular Standard, but oh what a Standard. It is very loud and resonant played unamplified, clear and sustains for days plugged in. I would not go for the you need a historic cause they are better line. I can pull off all those classic tones that I love with my Standard. I'm not anti historic either, I will have one someday, but will NEVER part with my Standard cause its just incredible. I will add that I think Gibson has been building some killer instruments over the last few years and I would think you would have a better chance of getting a winner by picking from recent vintage. I had a 91 Custom that was lame compared to my Standard. I think the recent Standards have a more vintage look and feel to them as well and it sounds like that what you want.
    Well said, Lefty -- all of it. My Standard and yours must be related .

  11. #51
    Les Paul Froum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    After perusing this thread,I am still confused. Is my Les Paul Standard less of a guitar because of the tenon? Gee,I'd hate for that to be true since I've owned it for 27 years.

  12. #52

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by rays44
    Positively stunning
    Do you think that he's maybe compensating for a shortness somewhere else?

  13. #53
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    It comes down to the personal choice for each of us, along with the other explanations above concerning wood, neck fit, pickups, how it was put together, et.al.

    I have tried many production LP's and owned quite a few over the years. Very few of them have done it for me when compared to the Historics I've played and own.

    The statement that a shorter tenon can sound compressed is exactly what my production Studio sounds like compared to my R9, which seems far more alive. Obviously, there are many possible reasons for this happening. I do believe that any production LP can sound as fine as a Historic, depending on who likes it's tone, etc.

    As to the statement that Hamer can make an extremely tight fitting tenon: I had some Gibson LP's built in Kalamazoo and upon visiting the custom shop on Parsons Street there, saw how tightly and exact these were built. The same as with the Hamers mentioned above.

    I also remember the problems the production line in Nashville was having using glue to hold in a loose fitting neck that was sloppily fitted to a body, in the 80's. This was a problem that kept arising at that time. A music store I frequented back then had many problems with LP's arise from this.

    There is a difference in how they are made and all of that is not just speculation.
    Be that as it may, while the newer production LP's are definitely fine guitars, I'll still take a Historic for the way it feels to me when holding it. I got used to playing LP's when they were made in the 50's and the production models since being re-introduced in late 1968-1969 just don't do it for me personally. I still don't see why the early reissued 1969 LP's get so much attention. They're not even close to what the originals were, IMHO. But, it's all what you get used to playing and feeling.

  14. #54
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheburashka
    I'm calling BS on this. A short tenon and a long tenon are identical functionally. Using an esoteric expression like "musical" to describe an extra inch of wood is the ultimate in pseudo-scientific cork sniffing.

    How does a long tenon allow for better control of the feel and tone of notes? This is a property of the player's fingers and ears.

    How can sustain be cut off on different parts of the neck by the shorter tenon? This is probably more an issue of a badly set up guitar, needing a truss rod adjustment or fret work.

    How does the tenon affect frequency cutoff? A Stradivarius has a super short tenon, yet somehow manages to lay claim to the best "tone" in the violin world.


    How does a short tenon make notes sound flat and compressed? It sounds more like an issue of dead strings. Seriously.
    I agree. It's all BS. Stories made up to justify the expensive guitar they purchased and to keep separation from those lowly short tennon guitars.

    Another example of this would be those AVHs claiming the old wood sounds better. It's a justification to help them keep their guitar expensive.

    My suggestion would be to get the guitar that sounds/plays/looks best for you withing your guitar budget.

  15. #55
    Les Paul Forum Member Lardvader's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    I wouldn't immediately think that length matters (although my missus might disagree) But surely the fit is the important thing here, short or long tenon if it's a bad fit it might have an adverse effect.

    You kind of wonder if that example photo is a deliberate attempt by gibson to make the short tenon look bad/worse...?

  16. #56
    Les Paul Forum Member ashbass's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by DopeyJake
    I agree. It's all BS. Stories made up to justify the expensive guitar they purchased and to keep separation from those lowly short tennon guitars.

    Another example of this would be those AVHs claiming the old wood sounds better. It's a justification to help them keep their guitar expensive.
     

    Now get this...
    We feed the rats to the cats,
    and the cats to the rats,
    and get the cat skins for nothing.

     

  17. #57

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashbass
    Saying "personally I just don`t buy into the `can`t beat a `59 LP` opinions that are often written here" and "Old wood, hide glue, long tenons. Hogwash" are two different things.

    Personal opinions when stated as such are what this place is about. If you don't see the difference in presentation of your ideas in the two bits above then oh well.
    No. Exactly the same. `Hogwash` and `I don`t buy in` mean exactly the same thing. It`s all subjectivity. Get it?

  18. #58
    Les Paul Forum Member BillyBling's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Fanatics.......
    If you wouldn't say it in person, don't say it online



    billyhandyjunior@gmail.com

  19. #59
    Les Paul Forum Member JVIoneyman's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by DopeyJake
    I agree. It's all BS. Stories made up to justify the expensive guitar they purchased and to keep separation from those lowly short tennon guitars.

    Another example of this would be those AVHs claiming the old wood sounds better. It's a justification to help them keep their guitar expensive.

    My suggestion would be to get the guitar that sounds/plays/looks best for you withing your guitar budget.
    How can you say that its all BS?
    Maybe for some people its the exact opposite, and they are trying to justify their standards, becasue they dont have a historic. Eveything goes both ways.
    I can only say what I have learned from my own personally experience. I like the Historics models better then the production models. Now - im only 19 years old, never played a "Burst" and have only been playing les Pauls for about 3 years. I owend a Standard before I even knew what a Historic was and I loved it, but for some reason I was never satified with it. Maybe It was a dog...I cant say. What I can tell you is that I went to Guitar center a year after buying the standard and played a Historic. I was very impressed and started reserching them here at this forum...and eventually purchased an R9. Now im not telling you that the tenon is the only reason that it sounded better to me...but it does add a little something. All the things COMBINED are what makes the Historics what they are. Every little thing adds up, and makes a whole. Now if the historics didnt exist, i would be very happy with the standards, becasue they are great guitars, but I will never let anyone say that my guitar is BS. This is not some justification of the high price, because I played it before I knew what it even was, but its NOT BS, i dont care what anyone says.

  20. #60

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    I've had different LPs since the late '70s & one particular Standard for almost ten years (& still own it). They always sounded fine to me & I was happy w/them. In 2002 I bought my first Historic LP & everything changed. I just think they play better & to MY ears they sound better than the production LPs I've owned, with the possible exception of one '69 GT routed for humbuckers, many years gone now.
    Do I now snub Stds. or the people that enjoy them? No. Why should I? If YOUR ears tell you they are the same, then that is what you have to work with. Just don't tell me I'm imagining things. I've been playing guitars for over thirty years; I think I have an idea of what sounds good.
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  21. #61
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    I'm stating my experience with historic vs standard LP's and my ear hears a more open and resonant sound with long tenon historics. My $.02, that's all. You anti-historic folks remind me of a band audition where the other guitarist was eye-balling me carrying in Marshall and Fender tube amps and my old echoplex and said why do you need them old tube amps, my Randalls solid state and sounds just fine :bonk If you can't notice a difference in sound & feel then fine, buy a plywood epiphone and stop whining

  22. #62
    Les Paul Forum Member bluespckr's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Short and to the point: The guitar is just a tool, and one small piece of a bigger picture. It's the guitarist and what he does with that guitar when it's in his hands that makes the biggest difference.

  23. #63
    In the Zone/Backstage Pass moonpie's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Out of 5 Lesters, I have one Historic and love it.
    I also have a couple Pre-historics and a Heritage 80 Standard, and I love them also.

    I paid more for the Flametop Reissue and the Heritage 80, both short tenon guitars, than I did for the R7.

    Kinda blows the hell out of any theory that I'm trying to justify the high price of the R7 and it's long tenon, no?

    Boys and Girls, Lesters start at about $500 used and go up from there. Buy the best one you can afford. If $500 is all you have to spend, buy a used Studio or LP Jr. Maybe an early to mid 80's Studio, complete with binding.

    I've got an 82 XR III- $565 on ebay about 6 months back.
    Heavy as a tank, but it's got Shaw pups and sounds fantastic.

    So, since I've got a cheap Lester that sounds good, should I sell my more expensive ones and tell others here what idiots they are to buy anything but and XR III?

    Each of my LPs are different.
    The R7 is the finest guitar I've ever played, hands down, but my favorite of the bunch is the H80. I like the look, the feel, the sound.
    The neck is very comfortable. It fits my hand better than the R7 or the Reissue with a 60s profile. The workmanship is on par with the R7, and I think the Heritage 80 will appreciate more over the years than the R7. All of these things add up to make it my favorite of the LP corral, even though it has the short tenon.



    IF YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE, YOU'RE JUST ASKING FOR IT!




  24. #64
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashbass

    Troll? Have you read any of my posts? i don't troll. It's just my opinion. You don't need to put up a stupid emodicon just because you don't agree with me.

  25. #65

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by 96 lppp
    I'm stating my experience with historic vs standard LP's and my ear hears a more open and resonant sound with long tenon historics. My $.02, that's all. You anti-historic folks remind me of a band audition where the other guitarist was eye-balling me carrying in Marshall and Fender tube amps and my old echoplex and said why do you need them old tube amps, my Randalls solid state and sounds just fine :bonk If you can't notice a difference in sound & feel then fine, buy a plywood epiphone and stop whining
    You're passing off opinion as expert testimony though, which opens it to rebuttal. Where your arguement falls on its face is in your total lack of proof of the things you assert. What lab did you test the guitars in? how big was your sample size? What equipment did you use to test? What journal did you publish the results in? Was your study peer-reviewed? If you're simply expressing your opinion, you can't use absolutes like "x IS y", you have to qualify it with "I think" or "In my view".

    The other possibility is that you over-extended yourself. You're probably very passionate about your really nice guitar, and when given an opportunity to tell people how great it is, you took it, and accidentally shat on everybody else by indirectly implying that their "lesser" standard models are tone-dead logs that barely qualify as musical instruments. You imply this again, by suggesting that we're tone deaf unless we like Historics, and that we wouldn't notice a difference between a Std and a plywood epiphone. If that's not what you're saying, may I suggest that you be more clear in future? :ahem

  26. #66
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    I'm just a Standard low life scumbag w/ Long Tenon envy! :wha

  27. #67

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheburashka
    You're passing off opinion as expert testimony though, which opens it to rebuttal. Where your arguement falls on its face is in your total lack of proof of the things you assert. What lab did you test the guitars in? how big was your sample size? What equipment did you use to test? What journal did you publish the results in? Was your study peer-reviewed? If you're simply expressing your opinion, you can't use absolutes like "x IS y", you have to qualify it with "I think" or "In my view".

    The other possibility is that you over-extended yourself. You're probably very passionate about your really nice guitar, and when given an opportunity to tell people how great it is, you took it, and accidentally shat on everybody else by indirectly implying that their "lesser" standard models are tone-dead logs that barely qualify as musical instruments. You imply this again, by suggesting that we're tone deaf unless we like Historics, and that we wouldn't notice a difference between a Std and a plywood epiphone. If that's not what you're saying, may I suggest that you be more clear in future? :ahem
    Bingo!

    And, if Gibson had originally made short-tenoned LPs in the `50s, and long-tenoned
    since `68, probably most tone hounds would be salivating for those original short-tenoned LPs. ;) Tone is so very subjective.

  28. #68
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Bingo? you do not have 1 number right and you think you have bingo! Your enthusiasm has overriden your common sense. If you can't hear the difference then spare your wallet and buy a short tenon LP. Hell, buy a molded plastic guitar if that floats your boat.

  29. #69
    Les Paul Froum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Long sticks go .....BoOoM...!!!! little sticks go ......pow....!!! :bonk

  30. #70

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Jeez you guys are right. I can't believe I thought I knew what a good sounding guitar was. Thanks for the enlightenment. You know so much!
    the faster we go the rounder we get

  31. #71
    Les Paul Forum Member D_rifter's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    How long is the tenon on Claptons Strat?

  32. #72
    Les Paul Forum Member
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by D_rifter
    How long is the tenon on Claptons Strat?
    Evidently not long enough.

  33. #73
    Les Paul Forum Member D_rifter's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jgyn
    Evidently not long enough.
    Thanks for clearing that up.

  34. #74

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by 96 lppp
    Bingo? you do not have 1 number right and you think you have bingo! Your enthusiasm has overriden your common sense. If you can't hear the difference then spare your wallet and buy a short tenon LP. Hell, buy a molded plastic guitar if that floats your boat.
    Not one number right? Well, I own a short-tenon '95 Page model that's a copy
    of HIS number 1. Is that a good enough number for you? ;) Btw, early '95 Page
    models now occasionally crest $7K, and will appreciate from here much faster than the long-tenoned historics. What are they, hovering around $3.5K? Guess I don't need that plastic geetah you're suggesting.

    Btw, the '95 Page sustains for days and days. ;)

  35. #75
    Les Paul Forum Member bluesjuke's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by honk-squawk-wail
    Bingo!

    And, if Gibson had originally made short-tenoned LPs in the `50s, and long-tenoned
    since `68, probably most tone hounds would be salivating for those original short-tenoned LPs. ;) Tone is so very subjective.

    We more than likely would be saying, " Wow, what an improvement Gibson has made over the years!".

    A lot depends on the individual guitar. I have a Standard ('02) that kicks butt. I love my Historics. They are different. Both do their job well. If I had to choose one to keep of course it would be the Historic but let me state that I would have a hard time selling my Standard to buy a fourth Historic. I would like to & have an R6 on my list. My Standard is too good of a guitar for me to not keep though.
    "Brings me the most special feeling I most ever had"

  36. #76

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesjuke
    We more than likely would be saying, " Wow, what an improvement Gibson has made over the years!".

    A lot depends on the individual guitar. I have a Standard ('02) that kicks butt. I love my Historics. They are different. Both do their job well. If I had to choose one to keep of course it would be the Historic but let me state that I would have a hard time selling my Standard to buy a fourth Historic. I would like to & have an R6 on my list. My Standard is too good of a guitar for me to not keep though.
    Guitar-folk, more often than not, lust after the tools of their particular idols. Page, Green, Allman, Gibbons, Clapton, Perry, etc. They lust said hero's LPs because these are the LPs that helped produce the classic songs of their youth. My point was that had those old recordings been made with short-tenoned guitars, today's players would be lusting those particular models...to try and capture the same tone. That's not a very inventive way to try and produce "one's own" sound, like their heros did. Just the opposite.

    I love the fact that fans listen to classic LP recordings done on Neve boards in great studios, with great engineers, bolstered by 2" tape saturation, and then discuss whether Jimmy Page 'top-wrapped' his strings over the stoptail. It's much akin to this whole long-short tenon debate. If all you're doing is strumming these puppies acoustically with your buddies, then that's an area of expertise that I don't personally spend a lot of time caring about.

    cheers! ;)

  37. #77
    Les Paul Forum Member tom wu's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Folks; the last thing we want is our wives read this post and to coin a phrase like..dare I say?
    Tenon envy!
    So remember what's been said before; -"It's not the size of your tenon but what you do with it that counts."
    Tenon-tively speaking. that its.
    -" Best guitar player in my house "-

  38. #78
    In the Zone 03LBurst's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by tom wu
    So remember what's been said before; -"It's not the size of your tenon but what you do with it that counts."
    Tenon-tively speaking. that its.

    Only people with short tenons say that.

  39. #79

    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    Quote Originally Posted by 03LBurst
    Only people with short tenons say that.
    Yes! And keep in mind that 'un-shaved' necks are unsightly in public. A true gentleman compounds his radius! ;)

  40. #80
    Les Paul Forum Member tom wu's Avatar
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    Re: Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

    And by the way..for my 2 cents on whether it makes a difference in the sound, I say it depends on how that tenon joins the body and what type of wood we're talking about.
    I've never owned a 58-60, so I'll leave those guitars out of the equasion ( as will most guys in here..when looking to buy their next LP ) But I have had a few histerics, and a couple of 50s LP GTs..so I base my "findings" on those.
    In my (short tenon) H-80LP you cannot tell where the neck ends and body begins. It's that tight! As it happens to be my favorite sounding guitar of all time (after I modded it with some 50s 600K pots, a set of old spragues and Tim Whites pickups ) I don't think the tenon thing is that relevant in guitars where the actual join has the "happy smile" just a little too happy. In other words, If it's how the vibration gets passed from neck to body..short or long is not so much a contribuitor as say, tight vs loose joinery.
    But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong.
    I think also that there are many, many other factors far more important to the tone that the tenon..lest of which is the person holding said tenon and how good a player he or she may be.
    -" Best guitar player in my house "-

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