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Long Tenon vs Short Tenon?

gordyh

New member
Joined
Oct 20, 2003
Messages
427
It's more than a inch
Gibson had 4 tenon sizes
extra long
long
medium
& short

Flickoflash - first time I've seen this. Where does the transitional tenon ('69) fit into this?
 

V!N

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Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Messages
537
My tenon's so big, ships use it to find their way into the harbour.
 

GlassSnuff

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Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Messages
3,671
I know this is hopeless, but please don't use the term "transitional tenon". "transition" implies a gradual change, in between steps, and it appears they simply stopped doing it the old way and started making the tenons smaller.

Well, most of them. Obviously, now, some of the builders kept using the longer tenons up to....'76? Since the production line changes meant they could no longer expect the pup cavity routing to cut the tenon (it used to be done after the neck was installed, but Norlin's new plan made them route it before the neck was done), so they just lopped off a bit before inserting it.

AFAIK (and I've been following all these threads for years), there are only two tenons, and three lengths. I think the most accurate term for these exceptions is "modified long tenon".
 

moonpie

In the Zone
Joined
May 24, 2003
Messages
9,781
D_rifter said:
No worries. There's the custom model with 3 special design tenon-bucker pickups, two placed beside the long tenon in order to pick up its good vibrations!

HSLPSinglenocut4.jpg



NB. an all solid white color model is not available.





You're killiin' me :lol :lol :lol
 

ccbryan

New member
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
Messages
81
Re: "Rocker Joint"

curt1lp said:
I might add that had I seen that picture of the rocker joint I probably would not have bought my Gibby as I feel its an insult. When I first saw the picture I felt a sort of sick feeling like that can't possibly be.

Curt, I'm not sure that it can. Like I said, why would any rational company make an extra effort to foul things up and make it more difficult and more expensive to make a less expensive product? That picture's been floating around the web for so long... and I wonder: both of those guitars are CUT IN HALF. Maybe they're not pristine perfect A1 specimens in the first place? Has anyone seen an actual Gibson reaction to the photo?

(Have to say I agree on the swiss cheese thing.... though even then, if Gibson were truly unable to source wood of optimum density, we'd all be bitching about how heavy they were)
 

bluesjuke

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Feb 6, 2005
Messages
7,007
ccbryan;
"(Have to say I agree on the swiss cheese thing.... though even then, if Gibson were truly unable to source wood of optimum density, we'd all be bitching about how heavy they were) "


To be honest I wish Gibson had "swiss cheesed" my Standard a litle bit more than they did. It is sweet but much heavier than my Historics still.
 

Cogswell

The Duke of Dumbassery
Joined
Mar 19, 2002
Messages
15,717
Re: "Rocker Joint"

curt1lp said:
...had I seen that picture of the rocker joint I probably would not have bought my Gibby as I feel its an insult. When I first saw the picture I felt a sort of sick feeling like that can't possibly be.
I used to think so too. I first felt cheated in some way. But my Std. does not sound "worse" now that I know about its construction, nor did it lose a bunch of tone when I got my Historic.
It still languishes in its case (along w/my R7- I'm busy w/my CS-336!).
Seriously, though; my Std is a great guitar & I've never been unhappy w/it other than p'up or knobs- stuff I could change. But when I got my 1st Historic it was like putting on a pair of glasses I never knew I needed!
 

Dave Carpenter

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Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
1,582
D_rifter said:
No worries. There's the custom model with 3 special design tenon-bucker pickups, two placed beside the long tenon in order to pick up its good vibrations!

HSLPSinglenocut4.jpg



NB. an all solid white color model is not available.

Your killing me! :lol
 

Dave Carpenter

New member
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
1,582
Re: "Rocker Joint"

Cogswell said:
I used to think so too. I first felt cheated in some way. But my Std. does not sound "worse" now that I know about its construction, nor did it lose a bunch of tone when I got my Historic.
It still languishes in its case (along w/my R7- I'm busy w/my CS-336!).
Seriously, though; my Std is a great guitar & I've never been unhappy w/it other than p'up or knobs- stuff I could change. But when I got my 1st Historic it was like putting on a pair of glasses I never knew I needed!

Beautifully stated! :salude
 

Idge

New member
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
791
D_rifter said:
One can only imagine the job interview at Gibson for a new hand wiggler.

What you talkin' bout booy
Yours truely, Willie Gibson
pt26.jpg

Look what I gots' to work with...
zakk4.jpg

What you want... This...
0104m.jpg
 

bigbluedog

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Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
16
Hi,I'm new here.I can't believe I've actually read all 8 pages of this!!! I've owned S/T LPs and now I own a L/T class 5 LP, I must say, I do believe there to be a DIFFERENCE in sound, I think L/T sounds better.What I cannot understand is,as previously stated,that with modern machining"cnc"it could be difficult to make a tenon of ANY length or angle desired!In my job,we use a cnc to mill high density ceramics to within micron specs( high density all ceramic crown+bridge) We could have "perfect fits" any neck angle desired(make several,different,although repeatable) Also with the "rocker neck,don't the sides still need to fit well? So whats the point of the miserable fitting bottom?Also,I think huge amounts of glue at the neck/body interface(although probabaly plenty strong) probably causes refractive distortortions in vibrations.(I don't think I've heard THATpossibility mentioned,yet) :jim
 

bluesjuke

Active member
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
7,007
bigbluedog said:
So whats the point of the miserable fitting bottom?Also,I think huge amounts of glue at the neck/body interface(although probabaly plenty strong) probably causes refractive distortortions in vibrations.(I don't think I've heard THATpossibility mentioned,yet) :jim


Didn't say anything but I did have that thought on the excessive glue filling an unnecessary void. ( if that really is the case ).

I'm sure the rocker joint bottom is planed to pretty flat in the process. I don't think we know the whole story on the actual method though.

Has anyone called Gibson on this ( better to call daytime as they seem to have more resources available at that time)?
 

55Custom

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Sep 5, 2003
Messages
6,251
bigbluedog said:
Also with the "rocker neck,don't the sides still need to fit well? So whats the point of the miserable fitting bottom?
Yeah, that's what I keep asking, but no answer makes sense. Perhaps Gibson should consult every other guitar maker in the world for a solution, since they don't seem to have a problem using a flat bottom tenon.
 

moondance360

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Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Messages
299
Geez....Guess I'll get in on this too. IMHO, One should always purchase the best instrument one can afford. I own one standard and one standard premium plus. I will not be throwing either one in the local dumpster any time soon. Perhaps one day I'll afford an historic or a heritage or maybe even a......... ;)

Don't worry, be happy
 

Big Daddy Class

Active member
Joined
Jan 11, 2020
Messages
136
Recycling an old thread here which will now end up a giant zombie thread! FWIW, my belief is that we all have our little "things" in our heads about what makes certain guitars sound better. I have them, too. Although I have certain preferences (demands really) for what I like in a guitar, I am not remotely convinced they make much difference in overall sound and/or tone. 2 of my (perhaps idiotic) are that I like to have the ABR-1 bridge that is screwed directly into the wood and not into the metal anchor (like they are now making in 2020), I like a fatter neck but not the huge fat neck, and I like long neck tenons.

I have in my mind (again do not even know if it is real) that I can not only hear the difference in the ABR-1 but that I can FEEL the difference in the vibrations while I play. I really do not even intellectually believe that but I cant get it out of my head so I just go with it. Since vastly most of the "real" ABR-1 configurations that I prefer have the long neck tenon, I throw that in, too!

The neck preference is likely just because I am a large man (6'6") and have huge hands, so I give that one a pass as being real personal preference but do not think it has much effect on tone.

I have had the privilege of playing several (many) late 50's Les Pauls in the same room at the same time as many newer models. Literally holding one and swapping to the other note for note. I cannot honestly say that I can hear much difference. (I do notice that most of the 50's and 1960 models feel more weight balanced in my hands, though.) Could be my ear, could (likely) be the fact that I am not Slash or Billy Gibbons but I cannot objectively determine (again, just for me) what it is about the 50's when I am not even remotely convinced that there is an "it".

I have heard every (seemingly) conceivable reason for "it" from the finish, to the neck tenon, to the capacitors, to the screws, to the glue, to the plastics around the pickups, etc. From my standpoint--when you figure up all the possible "its" there are 10^26 configurations possible. Far more than there have ever been guitars (or people on earth) and no 2 of them exactly the same. Compound that with the fact that all 50's les pauls were functionally hand made and hand made by different people. There are longer and shorter neck tenons on 50's Les Pauls, fatter and thinner necks, humbuckers with THOUSANDS more winds than another one wound 45 min earlier by the same person on the same day. My prediction is that this conversation can never be answered. We guitarists are new to this game, violinists have been debating "it" since 1680 and to this day no one has ever even proven there was an "it". I doubt the conversation will end any time soon....
 
Last edited:

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
First of all, Big Daddy Class 5, I think it would help everyone read your posts, if you would use paragraphs in your interesting musings. Something like this here little devise will make your posts easier to read, and help out old farts like me with tired old man vision, like this.:jim

It's not the length of the wood tenon that makes the audible difference so apparent in these guitars. It is the tight wood to wood contact between all three sides of tenon to mortise. Factor in the fingerboard, glued in on top, of dense, stiff rosewood, ebony or alternatives and you have a definite wood to wood tone transferring system. Long, modified, wide or whatever, as long as it is tight and right, there is a tone enhancement.
 

AA00475Bassman

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Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,769
Long neck tenon = vibration ?

What about a Firebird the neck is longitudinal neck no interruption with a tenon joint . I really don't think my Les paul's vibrate Less than my Firebird 's This tenon thing IMO is BS .
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
Long neck tenon = vibration ?

What about a Firebird the neck is longitudinal neck no interruption with a tenon joint . I really don't think my Les paul's vibrate Less than my Firebird 's This tenon thing IMO is BS .

Naw, this is BS. It's not just how you think some simply vibrates, it is the noticeable tonal effect between a rocker tenon and tight mortise/tenon like a long tenon. A multilaminate firebird neck does not have the same tone effect.
 

deytookerjaabs

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Nov 6, 2016
Messages
1,592
Naw, this is BS. It's not just how you think some simply vibrates, it is the noticeable tonal effect between a rocker tenon and tight mortise/tenon like a long tenon. A multilaminate firebird neck does not have the same tone effect.



NR Firebirds have come in 1 piece neck through, 2 piece neck through, multi lam neck through, and multiple neck joins over the years.
 

AA00475Bassman

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Apr 26, 2016
Messages
3,769
Naw, this is BS. It's not just how you think some simply vibrates, it is the noticeable tonal effect between a rocker tenon and tight mortise/tenon like a long tenon. A multilaminate firebird neck does not have the same tone effect.
Your just plain wrong Big Al trust me I know a lot more than you do , you also just tipped your knowledge cards with your post !
 
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