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ES-345 what cable do I use?

Reinhard

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Joined
Nov 12, 2002
Messages
3,747
Do I need a stereo to mono cable? How easy are these to make?
Any tips?
Just sitting at the airport with my "new" 65 345 :headbange
 

TomGuitar

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Apr 28, 2005
Messages
3,700
Depends. Some, but not all, 345s, have the pickups wired out-of-phase. Simply summing them with a stereo to mono cable makes it sound really thin.

Some 345s will work in mono if you simply push the jack of a standard cable in half way. In Arlington last week, we did that with one and it worked fine. Another did not. I have had several in the past that worked fine that way, some in phase, some out. One highly respected vintage restoration guru who was there believes they all should work that way and if they don't, it is due to a worn, bent jack.

You can use a TRS stereo jack split to two mono TS jacks and plug into two amps or two channels of one amp. But again, phasing is something you have to deal with. Fender channels are OOP so if the pickups are OOP, that solution brings them back in phase.

Another solution, albeit controversial, is to pull the varitone and wire it like a 335. But I won't start that discussion. Oops, maybe I just did.
 

OKGuitar

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Jan 20, 2011
Messages
938
Best solution is a Gibson GA 79 and a stereo to stereo cable. Failing that, the Y-cable splitting the output to 2 channels. I use a Fender tweed Tremolux or tweed Deluxe that way and it works great with no phase issues at all with a bone stock 345. No mention of Varitone necessary for this discussion.
 

RickN

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Feb 12, 2002
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7,143
Some 345s will work in mono if you simply push the jack of a standard cable in half way. In Arlington last week, we did that with one and it worked fine. Another did not.

I was in on that little test. An LPF member bought a really nice '59 345 that happened to have its original factory stereo cable and original strap (very cool). Michael Minnis was playing it and we decided to dig the stereo cable out of the case and give it a try. In the picture below, you can see the factory gray stereo cable plugged into the guitar. We then plugged each output into the two amps I brought to the show. That was kind-of cool.

But what triggered that little test? That particular 345 wouldn't do both pickups with a mono cable plugged half-way in. Just one pickup.

Conversely, at the same time, Tom went and grabbed a nearly identical-looking '59 345 from another dealer's booth and brought it over, and that one did work just fine with the mono cable plugged half-way in.

Strange stuff. :hmm

mm_345.jpg
 

Mars Hall

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Nov 26, 2008
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1,829
I had "Y" cables made for mine, into 2 channel amps. When you combine both channels with a stereo/mono cable you lose gain and volume.

My only drawback for using this type of setup is, any effects chain is only on one pu, unless you have stereo effects or you use 2 effect chains.
 

Wally

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Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,535
AFAIK, all ES-345's and 355's are out of phase in the middle position. THe Lucilles are also wired thisway as is the ltd ed B.B. King gutiars...?GC specials??? This out of phase thingis not an undesirable thing to many. B.B. 'stings' with this sound. HEy, Peter Green's Greenie was modded to be out of phase in the middle position. IT is not a 335 sound, though.
The stereo wiring necessitates one of 3 things...1)a stereo cable with a output plug for each pickup to use into two amps or two channels of one amp. 2)One can also use a two-into-one adapter wtih this stereo cable to bring the two plugs into one output for mon operation.or 3) one canbuild a two-into-one cable---stereo out of the guitar with both leads combined on a mono plug.
YEs, the Gibson stereo amps are nice. I had a GA-78...non reverb GA-79.
IT was nice. I keep two SuperCahmps for my '66 ES-345. WIht separate amps, you can spread teh stereo image wider than with a 'contained' stereo amp such as the Gibson Ga78/79's. Gibson did make an earlier stereo amp that had a separate speaker box for one ofhte amps...spread it out.
RE: FEnder two channe lreverb amps. YEs, their channelsare out of phase, adn when playing one of these Gibsons through the two channels thephase does coem to be in-phase. However, the reason why those amps' channel are out of phase is becasue the Vib channel has an extra gain stage compared to the Norm ch. PErhaps one can balance that aspect out.
Wtih two identical amps such as my rig withthe Super Champs, you can reverse the wiring on the speaker in one amp. That puts the amps out of phase. Once again....two OOP situations result in being in phase. This is the best solution, imho...if one wants in-phase as opposed to out of phase.
 

Wally

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Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,535
Reinhard, just ot be more direct in answering your question....
You need:
1)waulity..I use BElden...two conductor cable with shield cable. Maybe 15-20 feet for the 'stereo' run, plus maybe 10-15 more for the 'mono' runs from the 'Y' where you would separate each conductor from the 'stereo' cable to go 'mono'. IF you are building a 'mono' output, you could make do with whatever lenghth you want the cable to be because you don't have to make the 'mono' runs.
2)a stereo plug for the guitar.
3)1 or 2 mono plugs depending on whether you want a stereo output or a mono output.
3)some good electrical tape to make a good Y junction safe, strong and secure...and neat looking. My cable has been servicing my 345 since I built it in the '70's.
For a mono cable, you are gonig to wire the stereo plug at the guitar as a stereo plug. At the other end, just take both leads to the tip contact on the plug.
For stereo, you wire the stereo plug at the guitar as above. At the end of that cable, you are going to take ech lead to the conductor of each 'mono' leg, join the ground/shield, and then fashion a good 'joint' with the tape. Finish the mono cable runs with a mono plug as normal.
 

OKGuitar

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Jan 20, 2011
Messages
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Wtih two identical amps such as my rig withthe Super Champs, you can reverse the wiring on the speaker in one amp. That puts the amps out of phase. Once again....two OOP situations result in being in phase. This is the best solution, imho...if one wants in-phase as opposed to out of phase.

I believe that electronic phase and magnetic phase are not the same thing. It is my understanding-and I'm NOT an engineer, that switching the wires won't do anything but put your amps out of phase. The pickups will still be out of phase unless you flip over a magnet.
 

CDaughtry

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner and Moderator
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Jul 16, 2001
Messages
12,646
Rip the varitone out of it and use any cable you damn well please!:pwink
 

Wally

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Feb 27, 2003
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I believe that electronic phase and magnetic phase are not the same thing. It is my understanding-and I'm NOT an engineer, that switching the wires won't do anything but put your amps out of phase. The pickups will still be out of phase unless you flip over a magnet.

I understand that in changing the speaker leads one is not changing the phase of the relationship of the pickups within the guitar. That said, I just did the experiment. Believe it or not, there is a difference. WIth the amps 'in phase', the middle toggle position on the guitar yields a less powerful sound that does either pickup alone---typical 'out of phase' result, right? When I reversed the lelads to the speaker in one amp---putting the amps out of phase with each other, the middle position is more powerful than either pickup alone. This is the same thing that goes on with the two channel Fender amps.....the channels are out of phase. Run two pickups that are out of phase with each other...one pickup into each channelf of say a Deluxe REverb or any other two channel Fender reverb amp that hasn't been modded to have the reverb on both channels, and the result is that the final sound out of the speaker is typical of pickups that are in phace with each other. IF you run the same ES-345/355 in a mono mode with both pickups in to one channel of that amp, you will hear that out-of-phase thing...less powerful in the middle than on either pickup alone.

Cdaughtry wrote: "Rip the varitone out of it and use any cable you damn well please"

Yep, you can do that. Many have. However, there must be a reason why some folks...B.B. King, Freddie King, and others...have used these stereo/varitone Gibsons and found good effect in doing so. EAch to his own.
 
Y

yeti

Guest
I believe that electronic phase and magnetic phase are not the same thing. It is my understanding-and I'm NOT an engineer, that switching the wires won't do anything but put your amps out of phase. The pickups will still be out of phase unless you flip over a magnet.

Reversing the speaker leads will have the exact same result as flipping the magnet. Phase is agnostic with regards to what caused it to shift, electronic circuits, transducer polarity or acoustic phenomena. when flipping it (180 degrees) it's out, flipping it again and it's in phase, doesn't matter where in the chain it happens. (This is true for phase shifts of less than 180 degrees as well)
People claim all kinds of things regarding this topic. my favorite claim is by PU makers who claim they hear a difference listening to ONE PU by itself in phase and out of phase. Those claims are usually met with skepticism because phase shift can only exist between at least 2 PUs. Both have it wrong of course because the entire chain is subject to phase. If you record a single PU direct w/o an amp in the room it won't matter if the PU or any other device in the chain is in phase or not. When you re-amp the signal you can flip phase and it'll sound the same. This is not true when you play amplified. Every owner of an acoustic guitar with PU's knows this, the preamps usually have a phase switch to combat feedback. The guitar will sound different with only one PU active, in phase or out because of the way the soundwaves of the amplified signal interact with the guitar itself, notes that ring free in phase will sound choked off out of phase because, depending on the distance and frequency, the amplified signal might cancel the guitars vibration, etc. electric guitars are subject to this as well, try flipping phase during a harmonic feedback, it'll stop the loop or change it instantly. So, yes a PU will sound different in phase and out even by itself when playing amplified but it doesn't matter how the phase was reversed.
As far as ripping out the stereo circuit and varitone, that's another topic alltogether. I personally wouldn't do it, varitones have some very nice usable settings, IMO and the word on wether they kill tone is still out, right?
 

JJ Blair

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Jan 9, 2011
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Digging this old thread here. Just bought a '61 ES-345, that works fine with the jack halfway in, so I decided to see if I could just do a stereo to mono cable, no problem. What I did was take a stereo cable, plug it in, and then short the two channels on the amp side. Worked exactly the same as putting a mono jack in halfway, and I can have all the confidence of having it plugged in fully.
 

Wally

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Feb 27, 2003
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JJBlair wrote: "What I did was take a stereo cable, plug it in, and then short the two channels on the amp side."

I'm not sure I follow what 'short the two channels on the amp side" means.
However, building a cable with stereo on one end and the two 'hots' boath connected to a mono plug's tip into the amp on the other end is the way I would go about running a stereo guitar in mono.
 

Tom Wittrock

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Aug 2, 2001
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Can't you just take a standard [mono] cable and put a stereo plug on it, with the hot wire going to the two hot terminals on the stereo plug? :hmm
 

brandtkronholm

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Dec 3, 2006
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2,737
JJBlair wrote: "What I did was take a stereo cable, plug it in, and then short the two channels on the amp side."

I'm not sure I follow what 'short the two channels on the amp side" means.
However, building a cable with stereo on one end and the two 'hots' boath connected to a mono plug's tip into the amp on the other end is the way I would go about running a stereo guitar in mono.

Can't you just take a standard [mono] cable and put a stereo plug on it, with the hot wire going to the two hot terminals on the stereo plug? :hmm

Isn't this a 'mix-down cable?' I think this will "wimpify" the sound. Better results come from using a stero cable at the guitar and then using a Y-splitter at the amp - so long as your amp has two inputs.

Here's an old post of mine detailing three of my guitars, one of which is a 1959 ES 345 with the varitone intact. The stereo to Y mono mono cable is visible in the picture. There is some discussion about the 345 in this thread. (Warning! The picture is HUGE!)

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173138&highlight=345


It is possible to modify your single channel amp to properly accomodate a stereo input without the sound being "wimpified."

Here's another old post of mine detailing the cheap, easy, and noninvasive amp modification to get the true 345/355 stero sound from a one input amp. With this modification, there is no issues whatsoever when switching from 345 to LP.

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2258059&highlight=stereo+input#post2258059
 

Hardrockmapletop

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Sep 1, 2007
Messages
1,026
There's a post here somewhere with a photo of a (yellow?)stereo to mono switching/mix pedal.
I've spent hours trying to find it.
Can someone repost that pic, or post a link?
That seems like the best solution for those wanting to plug a 345 or similar stereo guitar into a single input/single channel amp.
 

ES345

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Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
705
Naturally i have my original y cable, black and red ends. but a few years ago Brian Moore guitars were getting into the usb deal and must have sold off a lot of their Y cables. Top quality cables and i bought a few, excellent. I got them off of ebay and i'd search for them or another y cable. I like using two amps, put delay on one pickup, a slight over drive, fuzz or wah on the other. Play the middle position on any selection, many great tones available.
 
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