The Open 'Burst Project

[PixelBurst]

Would anyone be into developing a set of plans/blueprints for making a '59 'burst? Maybe those with original 'bursts can help contribute measurements and we can put together a PDF with plans and instructions on what it takes to build a nice 'burst for yourself. We could include recommendations on pickups and vintage style hardware as well.

As a graphic designer I'd love to put the PDF together and do all the vector illustrations for the plans.

Sound cool, lame, ridiculous? Please let me know if you guys and gals think this is feasable. I think it would be a fun and educational project.

Take care,

Brian aka PixelBurst

[DOUBLEWHITE 59]

I think that is killer idea! Sounds fairly simple and straight forward. The only catch would be if Gibson would get pissy about people posting plans in pdf on the internet. That may be getting into copyright infringement area. Still sounds very interesting to me. (LPForum burst, the next Keebler)

[PixelBurst]

I would not use the "Gibson" logo or the "Les Paul MODEL" logo in the PDF. Also, I wouldn't even use the term "Les Paul". We can just call it "The Open 'Burst Project, 1959" or something. This week I'll start to make some templates that can be downloaded so people can measure and post their results if they want to contribute. I'll draw the 'burst from all the angles I can get in Adobe Illustrator and post them as a PDF.

There are plenty of companies that make single cut LP style guitars. Is there some sort of time limit on the copyright of a given guitar design?

[Ed Rafalko]

Been done already.

[PixelBurst]

Cool, where are the plans? I've never seen any online. I'd love to take a look at them.

My idea was just to make them free to everyone and update the info when new people contribute. Also add building tips for those DIY guys.

[Ed Rafalko]

I'm sure the artist who drew them will post a link if he so desires.

[PixelBurst]

Well I hope he does. I've read about proper measurements here frequently. It seems a lot of people here really know their stuff. I think it'd be awesome if everyone had access to that information.

I always thought Open Source software was a cool idea, it's be nice other things could benefit from that concept!

[Dave Paetow]

John's blueprint is really nice, but a really in-depth blueprint would be cool, like the Stew-Mac '50's Custom blueprint, but make it right, unlike the Stew Mac '50's Custom blueprint which isn't even the right guitar (!)
It would be impossible to blueprint the top carve, as it would be hard to interpret the 3 dimensional aspect of it in a one dimensional medium. It would be nice to blueprint a specific burst, as there are so many variables. Do some cross sections of a Burst neck to show the profile at each fret would be nice, too.

[Ed Rafalko]

It's easy to blueprint a top carve. Just use topographical projection.

[PixelBurst]

Yeah, I figured that would be extremely difficult if not impossible. But writing some guidelines to creating the top carve is feasable.

The neck cross section idea is great!

[Dave Paetow]

But that's not the same as actually seeing it and running your hand over the top carve in person to really understand it.

[Panic Kernel]

Originally posted by Ed Rafalko
It's easy to blueprint a top carve. Just use topographical projection.

Got one handy?

[Ed Rafalko]

Not for you.;)

[Flamed93+]

Chiropractors have 'em....I think.

[BluesForDan]

I think it would be a great idea. hey, my sis still has her ex's wood workshop in the basement...hmm

[heinz]

It is possible to map the top carve with Contour Lines, this is done by architects all the time to describe landscape topography.

Even easier and more effective, since the top carve is symmetrical a cross-section diagram could illustrate it pretty well.

[Rich R]

My opinion is that anything, like this project, which advances original 'Burst scholarship, is worthy of support--period. Why in the world would someone want to discourage this???

Pixelburst, if I can be of assistance with your project, please do not hesitate to let me know.

[Bluejazz]

Pixelburst, excellent idea. And I don't think using '59 Les Paul is a problem either, considering that you are simply identifying that which you are researching. If anyone balks at that, they lack common sense. Hell, I'd probably send Gibson the first copy, just so they know what's missing on the $5,500 R9's.
Good luck with your project.

[plaintop]

I'm just going to pay the money to get it done right. I really don't care how to do it OR how it is done. I just want it. spin Top carve's are all pretty unique. I like a nice flat deck with a subtle dish. I think it would take a little bit of experience to do a top right, not to mention the REST of the guitar.

I'm not big on "roll your own" if you hadn't noticed. ;)

[lpmaniac]

I'm with Brian... having refinished a couple of guitars with great results it's satisfying to do the work, but build the whole axe? Carving, routing, measuring, etc., etc... even if you find the time to get it done, you still have to know a whole bunch more stuff to get it done right.

I'll pay someone too...my time is worth more than the satisfaction of saying... Geez, look what I did!

Imagine if it sucked?

[Ed Rafalko]

I've done it- 5 or 6 times now.
My guitars don't suck.
AT least *I* don't think so. And I get a lot of satisfaction out of knowing that I'm entirely responsible and have no one else to blame or credit for them.
I'm not trying to sound superior to you guys who pay money for the things, mind you. But I found myself critisizing other's work that I didn't fully understand or appreciate, and I hate being a hypocrite, so I had to find out for myself.
Buying a 'replica' that someone else has built and finding more satisfaction in owning it than a genuine GIbson is all fine and dandy, but BUILDING a replica will teach you a lot more, and the more you build, the more you learn.

[Tonefiend]

I designed and drew my carved top guitar in Mastercam. The top was done as a wire frame, which I used to build a surface model. Then I converted it to a solid. So it is a solid model from which I can create a stl file.
It would be possible to do with a Les Paul by graphing it out and making templates like Benedetto did in his book.
Another, much easier and accurate way would be to digitize it.
From there you could make a carving mold on a rapid prototype machine.


I think it is safe to say building a les Paul for your 1st guitar, and going for a 100% dead nuts replica, you have a pretty good chance for suckage.


__________________

[Ed Rafalko]

Originally posted by Tonefiend


I think it is safe to say building a les Paul for your 1st guitar, and going for a 100% dead nuts replica, you have a pretty good chance for suckage.

Again, I don't think my guitars suck. They play and sound really good. And my first 'replica' is a pretty good piece. Couldn't be misaken for an original by a blind man with a sick seeing eye dog, but I gave up trying to make the perfect replica before I ever really started, after seeing so many of them dismissed and shot down.

[Ed Rafalko]

Originally posted by Tonefiend
I designed and drew my carved top guitar in Mastercam. The top was done as a wire frame, which I used to build a surface model. Then I converted it to a solid. So it is a solid model from which I can create a stl file.
It would be possible to do with a Les Paul by graphing it out and making templates like Benedetto did in his book.
Another, much easier and accurate way would be to digitize it.
From there you could make a carving mold on a rapid prototype machine.

For the guys who have access to the Fadals, RPM, and the required hardware and tooling, sure. BUt for the guy who has a bandsaw, a router, and a spokeshave, your advice is impossible to follow.
I've carved several tops by hand now, and I can say it's not hard to be fairly consistent. There will always be variations from top to top, on almost every guitar model with a carved solid top.
.

[Alex]

I'd LOVE to build my own burst. I think I'd treasure it more than a real 59 burst! What's the cost of making your own burst around?

[Tonefiend]

Ed all that stuff I mentioned can be done on software that can be had by mortals. It can be drawn and then used for templates, or whatever. I don't have a Fadal at my disposal either, so I make due with my planes and woodworking tools. And if someone wanted to spend a little money, they could have a mold made up.

[Wilko]

From what I've heard, something like the original carving machines could be fabricated by any tinkerer worth his salt. A pattern can be shaped from something hard (plaster, clay, whatever) and a rig set up to follow the pattern and move the router over a piece of wood.
The pattern follwer is on one side of a fairly stable arm, and the blank is on the other. I seem to remember seeing a setup like that in some old woodworking book from the 50's. They were shaping something other than guitar bodies, but the aperatus is the same.
I have some drafting experience and digital experience as well, so I can help too.
A real burst to measure is key.

[John Catto]

I've been doing something like this (as Ed and Dave mentioned) for about the last 2 years. My latest version says version 7 on it but is probably more like 14 ;) or 140! The worst thing about this stuff is that there are now of course earlier versions my stuff floating around and they are all inaccurate in some way minor or major. But the latest version is pretty on.

My first versions were based on tracings from '54, '59 and '60 guitars and cross-referenced to each other as I went along. Whatever some people say, other than top carve these guitars do stay pretty consistent to each other as time passes with just some sanding looseness and the early (52-4) perimeter changes. As I went along I added some particular details like the 50's backplates, some routing channel details (gained from seeing shots of guitars with the top milled off!) and some minor points that came from some of Dave P's fab caliper measurements (exact truss rod cutaway position, inside switch cavity size.. this changed very slightly from my original measurements from the '54). In the last version I did, I completely re-did the perimeter based on tracings from a '55 Custom, the back binding allowed me to do a much more exact edge trace. It's now pretty accurate and will print and A/B to most 50's guitars.

I also have sheets of other measurements which need to be compiled before I go lose them. I'm not precious about this and don't mind sharing them. I'll pull together an up to date version later on this evening and post a link. All my original work is in Illustrator eps format.

[PixelBurst]

Thanks for all the positive comments as well as criticism. Sure, most people will not attempt to build their own '59 'burst guitar but will enjoy looking at the plans. Personally I cannot do it by myself since I live in Brooklyn in an apartment without access to the right tools. But I do have friends who live in the 'burbs with most of the tools that would be needed. One of them already said he'd help me out and even though he's never built a guitar he does have a lot of woodworking experience.

John, I'm sure everyone here would be grateful to see the results of your research and hard work. I look forward to viewing your plans.

I do think it'd be nice to put a site together where all information could be stored and organized for anyone to view. There's a lot of information on construction techniques as well tricks that could save people a lot of time.

Ed, I commend you for building your own axes! Sometimes the journey is just as fun as the destination.

[Alex]

I have webspace on 58gibson.com (I own it) I can put up whatever we need to get this project rolling. Please shoot me an e-mail if interested.

[John Catto]

OK Guys, Happy New Year! :dude This is the latest version

Original Illustrator eps format, you'll need Illustrator or something else that can read eps files.

http://www.mondocatto.pwp.blueyonder...aul59full8.eps

PDF format

http://www.mondocatto.pwp.blueyonder...aul59full8.pdf

Non builder types can of course take it along to a bureau and get it printed out full size for a poster or whatever.

much reduced preview

[GuitarsfromMars]

John Catto,didn't realize you were into building these-It must be a wonderful gift....I think getting a full set of drawings would be great although I probably would NOT build one, it would be great to delineate the construction points and learn more about the guitar's construction and physical properties.
Thanks,
GFM

[DrewB]

Comparing the PDF file to a couple of headstock templates I made (from a 2001 R9 and a Classic), it looks like setting the size to 90% (at least, on the screen) is pretty much right on size-wise. When you print it out, is 100% the right size?

[John Catto]

For print out it should be exactly 100%. Make sure none of Acrobats options to fit the page to the paper are enabled, this does NOT fit on an A4/American Letter page ;). There is a 20mm size referance above the title in the cutaway, that should measure exactly 20mm on printout. On the headstock the gap btween the bottom of the headstock and the bottom edge of the trussrod access should measure exactly 13.85mm if your printer is accurate (see detail)



Like Dave's photo

[John Catto]

For anyone who doesn't quite understand the way I drew it this photo should explain what's going on in the switch cavity area.

[FlyingNotes]

Very interesting discussion!!

John, thanks for the graphics! I assume that the curved channel headed from the control cavity toward the body strap button is for the bridge/tailpiece ground. Is that correct? Why would it be cut so long and in that direction?

Thanks,

FN

[Bolero]

woah!

this is interesting!!

John, I've been referencing version 3 of your drawings to do a 3d model of '59:


http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...threadid=30593


does anyone know how wide the fretboards were at the end? ( body end)

[John Catto]

Originally posted by FlyingNotes
I assume that the curved channel headed from the control cavity toward the body strap button is for the bridge/tailpiece ground. Is that correct?

That channel is for the ground but is only there on the 52/3 models with the trapese tailpiece.

[PixelBurst]

Thanks for putting up your drawings John. I will add some templates this weekend with several different views for additional measurements and construction details.

[paddyopossum]

Talking to some violin builders, and perusing books on violin building, would go far towards explaining how to do top carves. Seeing as the LP body is smaller than that of a big archtop guitar, you'd likely get more useful info from a violin luthier.
A large viola and a LP's top wouldn't be that different in carve size, overall, though the length dimensions would be different. General principles would be the same, and of course, you're just doing the top side with an LP, so it might be easier. With a fiddle, the inside is mirroring(somewhat) the outside, so you need thickness calipers.