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Old 01-20-09, 03:59 PM   #1
RonG
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09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Now that the R9 09 specs are out and it doesn't include Brazilian should the 03 R9 Brazilian prices go up? Remember supply and demand.

Seems that there are a few people that are disappointed that 09 R9's didn't include Braz.
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Old 01-20-09, 04:51 PM   #2
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

With the limited data and photos available for the '09s, it appears that the '03 BRW guitars are technically more accurate, at least from a materials perspective. From a production numbers perspective, they are very close (500 vs ~600?). We'll see if the masses value a few cosmetic changes over historically accurate wood. This is a good question
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Old 01-20-09, 05:19 PM   #3
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

The 09 specs will continue into the future until they are again changed, but it's highly unlikely Gibson will be using Brazilian in the near future. So those numbers will not change. I don't personally care about either, but it would make sense that if you want Brazilian and there are only @ 600 in the world, someone will always be willing to spend more money to acquire one as opposed to a production guitar that Gibson will crank out as long as there is a market.

Last edited by rbuse : 01-20-09 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 01-20-09, 05:33 PM   #4
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

I don't believe that my '03 R7 BRW Goldtop went up in value after that ridiculous 50th anniversary goldtop model was introduced.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:03 PM   #5
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Originally Posted by DANELECTRO View Post
I don't believe that my '03 R7 BRW Goldtop went up in value after that ridiculous 50th anniversary goldtop model was introduced.

03 R7 BRW Goldtops are fantastic guitars....I wish I had one.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:05 PM   #6
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

I have a question/thought. .. and it may even be a dumb one.

Braz is not extinct, its just on the CITES-BAN-LIST for now.
The reserves of these trees have been 'building up' for about 20 years now.

There will come a time, sooner than we think that Braz will be removed off the 'Cites-Ban' list.
After that, LEGAL exports would be heavily monitored, from then on foward.

Once Braz is off the 'ban', Gibson would likely cut a deal
like they did regarding certain mahogany recently.
(where they pay more than average, to get first choice).
Let's face it, Braz can go alot further for Gibson, since its only
for fingboards vs say mahogany for full bodies.

Gibson is against using CITES-Banned woods, not Braz in particular.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:16 PM   #7
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

I just read somewhere that the BRW trees harvested for Gibson guitars in the 50s were hundreds of years old. If that's the case, we'll have to wait a while for farm-grown trees.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:20 PM   #8
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

I think the Braz 03's are closer based on the wood. With all of the updates they've done for the 09's, doesn't it make it closer to a '59? I don't understand why the Braz makes it closer if it still doesn't have all of the appointments of the 09. They've done quite a few changes to the new R9.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:23 PM   #9
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DANELECTRO View Post
I just read somewhere that the BRW trees harvested for Gibson guitars in the 50s were hundreds of years old. If that's the case, we'll have to wait a while for farm-grown trees.

There's always been folklore myth about how old the trees were to build the 50's Les Pauls.
That might not be the case. Even if it was, it still might be possible to harvest younger trees,
since its only for the fingerboards. Even if younger, it can't be any worse than stumpwood Braz on many of the '03's.

EDIT: I was able to find this, regarding the time needed for an adult tree :
(its about mahogany, but should apply to rosewood too)
>>> http://www.agribusinessweek.com/fore...t-big-returns/ <<<
according to this, it takes 30 years Total,
and we have had 20 years already of a CITES Braz Ban, to grow reserves.

Last edited by MRTONEMAN : 01-20-09 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:32 PM   #10
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Even if younger, it can't be any worse than stumpwood Braz on many of the '03's.
I've seen some of those. The grain is actually doing circles! What a disgrace.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:36 PM   #11
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
From a production numbers perspective, they are very close (500 vs ~600?).
Do you mean 500 2009 R9s? 500 is only the number of high gloss R9s coming out in 2009. They're making more VOS later on in the year.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:43 PM   #12
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Yes, as I understand it, the "official" 50th R9 guitars will be limited to 500 units with additional Historic R9s also being produced for 2009.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:55 PM   #13
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

I think they're all actually official 50ths. The only thing "special" about these first 500 is that they're either HC or DB and high gloss.

Interestingly enough, a guy at MLP pointed this out...if you have a 2008 R8 and look at the back of the COA, the paper, not the booklet, it says 50th.
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Old 01-20-09, 06:57 PM   #14
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

that is interesting!
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Old 01-20-09, 07:04 PM   #15
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonG View Post
I've seen some of those. The grain is actually doing circles! What a disgrace.

That must be what they use for these guitars:

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Old 01-20-09, 08:02 PM   #16
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Old 01-20-09, 08:26 PM   #17
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRTONEMAN View Post
There's always been folklore myth about how old the trees were to build the 50's Les Pauls.
That might not be case. Even if it was, it still might be possible to harvest younger trees,
since its only for the fingerboards. Even if younger, it can't be any worse than stumpwood Braz on many of the '03's.

EDIT: I was able to find this, regarding the time needed for an adult tree :
(its about mahogany, but should apply to rosewood too)
>>> http://www.agribusinessweek.com/fore...t-big-returns/ <<<
according to this, it takes 30 years Total,
and we have had 20 years already of a CITES Braz Ban, to grow reserves.
20 year old brazilian is far from the old growth used in the 50's - It is generally considered sapwood at this age and is very light with colors light white to tan color. As the tree gets older the outer growth gets the nice dark brown color which is needed for Gibson fingerboards and much more time for acoustic guitar sizes. As hard as it is to believe the reason brazilian rosewood is so depleted is not because of guitars but most of it went to the perfume industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonG View Post
Now that the R9 09 specs are out and it doesn't include Brazilian should the 03 R9 Brazilian prices go up? Remember supply and demand.

Seems that there are a few people that are disappointed that 09 R9's didn't include Braz.
Knowing Gibson in 2013 they will have the 10th anniversary of the 2003 Brazilian Rosewood Les Paul Historic guitars !!!
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Old 01-20-09, 09:02 PM   #18
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Actually, nevermind. I just looked at the COA of my '08 R6 and it too has the 50th anniversary on the back.

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Old 01-20-09, 09:05 PM   #19
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Would that be the same for a 2007 VOS R7 goldtop? I guess technically a 2007 Les Paul Jr. singlecut is also a 50th anniversary
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Old 01-20-09, 09:09 PM   #20
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

From what I've been told by a few luthiers is that the old growth Brazilian sounds much different and more musical than the stuff that was cut before the CITIES Ban.
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Old 01-20-09, 09:30 PM   #21
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Actually, nevermind. I just looked at the COA of my '08 R6 and it too has the 50th anniversary on the back.

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Old 01-20-09, 09:46 PM   #22
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
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20 year old brazilian is far from the old growth used in the 50's - It is generally considered sapwood at this age and is very light with colors light white to tan color. As the tree gets older the outer growth gets the nice dark brown color which is needed for Gibson fingerboards and much more time for acoustic guitar sizes. As hard as it is to believe the reason brazilian rosewood is so depleted is not because of guitars but most of it went to the perfume industry.
You are taking me out of of context. I never said to use 20 year old trees.

You also say often, of the myth of Air Dried wood used in 50's Les Pauls. Yet Gibson installed Kilns in the 1940's.

Here is what is said about that in the Vintage-Section by someone who is extremely knowledgeable regarding Bursts.:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/sh...lns#post920595
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Old 01-20-09, 09:54 PM   #23
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonG View Post
Now that the R9 09 specs are out and it doesn't include Brazilian should the 03 R9 Brazilian prices go up? Remember supply and demand.

Seems that there are a few people that are disappointed that 09 R9's didn't include Braz.
Gibson already stated in 2003 that No more Brazilian rosewood would be used. As promised and predicted, Brazilian never showed up again. That's why the 2003 Historics have already been going up in value. So nothing has changed.
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Old 01-20-09, 10:08 PM   #24
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonG View Post
I've seen some of those. The grain is actually doing circles! What a disgrace.
Disgrace? Grain doing circles makes you dizzy ? I like my figured braz wood. I never tire of looking at it.
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Old 01-20-09, 10:18 PM   #25
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

[quote=MRTONEMAN;1930207]There's always been folklore myth about how old the trees were to build the 50's Les Pauls.
That might not be the case. Even if it was, it still might be possible to harvest younger trees,
since its only for the fingerboards. Even if younger, it can't be any worse than stumpwood Braz on many of the '03's.

I had a few people knocking down my door and offering me way more than my reissue was worth , every owners dream, to rid me of the "horrible stumpwood Braz". The figured, aromatic scented , slick feeling fingerboard wood was no good then ? The rich man that bought my reissue thought it was good wood.
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Old 01-20-09, 10:21 PM   #26
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Disgrace? Grain doing circles makes you dizzy ? I like my figured braz wood. I never tire of looking at it.
+1. Have heard people make comments about the '03 curly boards not being correct and not having the same tone as straight grained brazilian but I love my curly wavy braz board!!!
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Old 01-21-09, 08:14 AM   #27
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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Disgrace? Grain doing circles makes you dizzy ? I like my figured braz wood. I never tire of looking at it.
+1 and I've seen *plenty* of old Gibsons with less than straight, quartersawn fretboards
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Old 01-21-09, 08:41 AM   #28
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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...it still might be possible to harvest younger trees,
since its only for the fingerboards. Even if younger, it can't be any worse than stumpwood Braz on many of the '03's.
My understanding, however, is that the younger the tree, the lighter colored the wood. In its younger stages the tree's wood starts off as a light tan color, and darkens with age. So theoretically you could get a fingerboard out of a young tree, but it wouldn't be the nice, dark, rich brown and orange that we normally associate with Braz.
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Old 01-21-09, 09:13 AM   #29
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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My understanding, however, is that the younger the tree, the lighter colored the wood. In its younger stages the tree's wood starts off as a light tan color, and darkens with age. So theoretically you could get a fingerboard out of a young tree, but it wouldn't be the nice, dark, rich brown and orange that we normally associate with Braz.
My '57 Junior has some of that "young" Brazilian
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Old 01-21-09, 09:15 AM   #30
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

Quote:
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I've seen some of those. The grain is actually doing circles! What a disgrace.
A disgrace??? I think not. (or should I say knot?)





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Old 01-21-09, 11:34 AM   #31
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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That must be what they use for these guitars:

..... You and I are officially now enemies... doing that to an Ibanez Roadstar!! Some of the best guitars ever built!

...wait...the neck... It's growing (on me)....I WANT ONE!!!
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Old 01-21-09, 12:51 PM   #32
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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A disgrace??? I think not. (or should I say knot?)






Beautiful board...looks just like mine!
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Old 01-21-09, 02:34 PM   #33
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

BRW is nothing....

there is NO differnce in tone AT ALL.....
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Old 01-21-09, 04:24 PM   #34
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

.
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Old 01-21-09, 04:40 PM   #35
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

^^^^
Zoomer thanks for the info and the link.
Yes Kiln drying is a refined process today, but the concept is still there from the 1940's.
Personally, I believe, and many others do to, that all the true old growth wood was gone by WWII.
With Kilns being implemented by Gibson in the 1940's and the fact that we are discussing SOLID body guitars,
I think we are both splitting hairs. ... take care

EDIT: ... your post above somehow disappeared.
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Old 01-21-09, 11:39 PM   #36
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

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BRW is nothing....

there is NO differnce in tone AT ALL.....
Maybe not to you. But if someone thinks his BRW R9 has THE tone, some of that magic MIGHT come from the braz board.
Anyway, braz is what Gibson used in the old days, and if one likes OLD SPECS on his HISTORIC (-remember, this is the Historic District- ) , then I don't think you should invalidate it with such a categoric statement.
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Old 01-22-09, 08:14 AM   #37
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Re: 09 R9 specs are out...should R9 03 Braz prices go up?

One nice thing about BRW is the feel. It has a waxier feel than other woods.
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