1964 ES-345 Varitone Bypass Clips

[j45]

A lot has been said and guessed about the 345 Varitone but very few have tested their guitars with and without. I've heard six of mine to date with and without VT's and the results have always been the same. Here's a clip of a 1964 ES345 with maroon wire wound PAT sticker pickups which are in fact short magnet PAF's that received early PAT stickers. I recorded the guitar without an amp, directly into a Roland VS2480 using the same channel in default settings with no EQ. Not a great way to get tone but a great way to hear the naked sound of a pickup and the effect of the circuit.

This is all recorded in the 345's VT switch position one which is the closest the guitar allows to a bypass. The comparitive clip that follows each pickup is recorded with the circuit out of the guitar. First the neck p/u with the VT, then with the circuit removed, then the bridge position with and without, then the middle positon, with and without the circuit in place. I think this wil answer the question of how much affect the Varitone has on the guitars pickups and whether or not there is a true bypass available.


here's the track log and times of what you are hearing

0:03 - Neck pickup with varitone in Bypass position
0:17 - Neck pickup with circuit removed

0:29 - Bridge pickup with varitone in bypass position
0:41 - Bridge pickup with circuit removed

0:54 - middle position with varitone in bypass position
1:07 - middle position with circuit removed

clip:
http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

[The Stumble]

Hi

the link isnt working directly but i can access the soundfile by going into soundclick using another of your posted audio clips

[kiergtr]

Loose the varitone. I wouldn't hesitate if it were my guitar. Good job.

[BigsbyTracks]

Here's a direct link to the song page.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/song...songID=4658561

Indeed, bypassing the Varitone makes a big difference. One that I personally prefer.

I've been staying out of the fray in that other thread because my opinions are of little consequence and it really does come down to the eternal `it's my guitar, screw you' vs. `people who so much as turn a screw are desecrators' argument.

For my part, I removed the Varitone harness from my already-not-very-collectible '64 ES-345 this spring, after owning the guitar for over 25 years. I did it in a very respectful and restorable manner, and so far I prefer the 50's style harness I put in.

Thanks for the clip!

[alainguitars]

Proof is in the pudding! Can I have mine please?

[j45]

Originally Posted by BigsbyTracks

Here's a direct link to the song page.


Indeed, bypassing the Varitone makes a big difference. One that I personally prefer.

sorry, here's the correct link... I think:


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=589296

What's interesting is this is in the "bypass" position. In theory you shouldn't hear the varitone. Everybody's ears are different. I personally hear a big loss in clarity and output. If I had a choice of sound in pickups I can't imagine choosing the first of each example but I like to start with a clear sound in my pickups that has plenty of harmonic content.

[MikeSlub]

Those clips are indeed definitive as to the impact of the Varitone. I don't hear that when playing my 345s, but the A/B is clear. Thanks for posting them!

[j45]

Originally Posted by MikeSlub

Those clips are indeed definitive as to the impact of the Varitone. I don't hear that when playing my 345s, but the A/B is clear. Thanks for posting them!

Hi Mike, you would naturally EQ your amp to suit the guitar and you can compensate and get more highs. This recording is dead flat with the guitar plugged straight into the recorder. When you are playing your 345 it probably sounds fine, all things being relative. What the clip shows is there is a major loss of harmonic content at the ground level. This can't be made up. You can brighten a dark photo with photoshop but you can't add clarity and detail....same thing here. I think the main reason one would do this simple operation that is easily reversible is that if you have a late 60's ES-345, you basically have the same PAF's that are in a 1961 dot neck. Everyone can't afford a $25,000+ dot neck. With a stock '67 ES-345 you'll never hear close to that kind of tone but it's in there if you let it out. Bypass the VT and voila!, you've got a guitar that sounds like $25,000.

[BigsbyTracks]

Originally Posted by j45

What's interesting is this is in the "bypass" position. In theory you shouldn't hear the varitone. Everybody's ears are different. I personally hear a big loss in clarity and output. If I had a choice of sound in pickups I can't imagine choosing the first of each example but I like to start with a clear sound in my pickups that has plenty of harmonic content.

I used the word `bypass' incorrectly up above. I prefer the sound of my ES-345 with the Varitone removed from the circuit entirely, not `bypassed' by putting the switch at `1'. Ditto with the sounds on your clip.

If you look at the schematic, there is a resistor connecting the pickup to the Varitone even in the `1' position. That resistor is a load on the pickup even when the Varitone is nominally `bypassed'.

But there's another loading factor as well. The Varitone wiring is intended for independent channels on a stereo guitar amp. The volume and tone controls are not wired the same way as a mono guitar. When you jumper both pickups together, that further loads the signal.

The clip is pretty telling when it comes to hearing just how much of an effect that loading is... thanks again for posting it.

[pentatone]

j45 - how was the VT configuration on the "Crossroads" clip - bypassed or removed?

I like the tone on "Crossroads" very much and for the case the VT is bypassed I´d see no need for removing.

[keef]

J45 - another very interesting experiment. Thanks again for going out of your way to make those clips.

I am certain that most of the members here greatly welcome and value your insights and experience with regard to many topics - please don't let the sometimes heated discussions prevent you from continuing to share your views with us.

As to the clips: the 'removed' parts sound very much like my '64 335. MUCH more bass and clarity than with the bypass engaged. Maybe I'm alone, but I dig the quacky Middle Position in Bypass. Turn the amp up loud and you may get into '60s BB King territory...just theorizing.

[Groover]

+ 1

[Siegler]

Originally Posted by j45

. . . if you have a late 60's ES-345, you basically have the same PAF's that are in a 1961 dot neck. Everyone can't afford a $25,000+ dot neck. With a stock '67 ES-345 you'll never hear close to that kind of tone but it's in there if you let it out. Bypass the VT and voila!, you've got a guitar that sounds like $25,000.

I was going to ask why not just get a stock '67 ES-335 but I suppose you feel you've seen more 345s from that period with the purple wire than 335s -- am I following correctly?

And thanks for your efforts -- I do have a '64 345 stock. I haven't seen the coil yet. I also have a pair of buckers off a '65 355 with the orange wire that came with long magnets -- go figure.

[keef]

I recall people claiming here that the maroon wire pat sticker pups were sort of PAFs, but that the post '65 orange wire buckers sounded different and were less desirable...true or false?

[j45]

Originally Posted by Siegler

I was going to ask why not just get a stock '67 ES-335 but I suppose you feel you've seen more 345s from that period with the purple wire than 335s -- am I following correctly?

And thanks for your efforts -- I do have a '64 345 stock. I haven't seen the coil yet. I also have a pair of buckers off a '65 355 with the orange wire that came with long magnets -- go figure.

The pickups in 335's have gone through four transitions by 1967 but the gold supply of short magnet PAF's that received an early PAT sticker lasted until 1967. Very different sound. The 335 is a T-Top by 1967 and actually take on the tonal characteristics of the orange wound T-Tops in late 1964. They are much more hard and harsh in comparison. But, you still have what is basically a PAF guitar with a 345 up until 1967. I guess another clip is in order of the differences between the three versions of PAT stickers and PAF's.

The Crossroads clip is a 1967 ES345 that had the VT taken out many years ago. That guitar is the reason I started wondering why mid-late 60's 335's would sound nothing like this and led to discovering the series of winding changes that affect the tone of PAT humbuckers and that 345's still have what is essentially PAF's.

[Michael Minnis]

As a recent owner of a 1962 ES-345, I've followed the various 345 threads with great interest. Perhaps now is as good a time to chime in as any. First of all, my guitar has a fractured headstock. Nothing serious and now professionally fixed. Needless to say, it made the guitar more afforadable. I wasn't looking for a collector's piece. I needed a guitar I can take to gigs and travel on the road with. I initially was drawn to the 345 from reading all the various posts about getting PAF tone at a more affordable price. The first 345 I bought on approval was a 66 with a custom made plaque. Turns out there were no holes under the plaque so I sent the guitar back. As is often the case, things happen for a reason. I'm glad that guitar is gone because the 62 I now have is great... but it took a little tinkering to make it great. I play in a funk/soul/r&B band, so the varitone seemed like a cool thing to me. I could get "Strat-like" tones, but on a Gibson. The stereo/mono issue was a pain with my rig and one of the first things I "fixed" on the guitar. But then I had the out-of-phase pickup situation to deal with. I didn't need more quack. The varitone provided enough of that, so my tech went to work on that. And then there's the whole interactive nature of the volume knobs. Another quirk I found a bit frustrating. Long story short, after the helpful guidance and support of Kerry/J45 and Rick/Mofinco, I decided to gently remove the wiring harness and replace it with a standard "335 harness." As I believe Kerry's clips prove, the difference in sound is pretty remarkable. The guitar is now extraordinary. Last night was my first chance to bring the 345 to rehearsal with the wiring harness change. Everyone in my very large band commented on the tone and my playing. I finally felt at home with the instrument and deeply inspired. And I believe that's so much of what we're looking for when we're searching for the right instrument. I have "collectible" pieces. I understand wanting to preserve an instrument, especially from a financial standpoint. I didn't have to worry about that with this particular guitar. But bottom line, removing the harness transformed the guitar for me. Once again, I'd like to thank Rick and Kerry for all their help. They never once pushed their opinions on me, but they did help turn this 345 into the guitar I believed it could be when I bought it in Arlington.

[mrhappy]

My VT got the boot @ 27 yrs ago when men were men and wire cutters were the way to go!!

[barbarossa]

There's two more advantages to dumping the VT. You lose about a pound off your guitar, and you can now use much better caps then the ceramic discs they came with. You cannot fit full size bumble bees or similar inside the shielding cans.


b

[TomGuitar]

Originally Posted by Michael Minnis

As a recent owner of a 1962 ES-345, I've followed the various 345 threads with great interest. Perhaps now is as good a time to chime in as any. First of all, my guitar has a fractured headstock. Nothing serious and now professionally fixed. Needless to say, it made the guitar more afforadable. I wasn't looking for a collector's piece. I needed a guitar I can take to gigs and travel on the road with. I initially was drawn to the 345 from reading all the various posts about getting PAF tone at a more affordable price. The first 345 I bought on approval was a 66 with a custom made plaque. Turns out there were no holes under the plaque so I sent the guitar back. As is often the case, things happen for a reason. I'm glad that guitar is gone because the 62 I now have is great... but it took a little tinkering to make it great. I play in a funk/soul/r&B band, so the varitone seemed like a cool thing to me. I could get "Strat-like" tones, but on a Gibson. The stereo/mono issue was a pain with my rig and one of the first things I "fixed" on the guitar. But then I had the out-of-phase pickup situation to deal with. I didn't need more quack. The varitone provided enough of that, so my tech went to work on that. And then there's the whole interactive nature of the volume knobs. Another quirk I found a bit frustrating. Long story short, after the helpful guidance and support of Kerry/J45 and Rick/Mofinco, I decided to gently remove the wiring harness and replace it with a standard "335 harness." As I believe Kerry's clips prove, the difference in sound is pretty remarkable. The guitar is now extraordinary. Last night was my first chance to bring the 345 to rehearsal with the wiring harness change. Everyone in my very large band commented on the tone and my playing. I finally felt at home with the instrument and deeply inspired. And I believe that's so much of what we're looking for when we're searching for the right instrument. I have "collectible" pieces. I understand wanting to preserve an instrument, especially from a financial standpoint. I didn't have to worry about that with this particular guitar. But bottom line, removing the harness transformed the guitar for me. Once again, I'd like to thank Rick and Kerry for all their help. They never once pushed their opinions on me, but they did help turn this 345 into the guitar I believed it could be when I bought it in Arlington.

And that neck pickup sounding great even in Arlington. Hope I get a chance sometime to hear it now.

[Michael Minnis]

Originally Posted by TomGuitar

And that neck pickup sounding great even in Arlington. Hope I get a chance sometime to hear it now.

I hope so, too, Tom. Oh, and BTW, getting your benediction on an ES is always a good thing.

[sliding-tom]

It's like somebody took a blanket off. Thanks for the clips. I wonder if I should convert my 355?

[TomGuitar]

Originally Posted by sliding-tom

It's like somebody took a blanket off. Thanks for the clips. I wonder if I should convert my 355?

Yes, I did it to mine and it made the same kind of difference. Don't have it anymore. Wish I did.

[Radagacuca]

that is really a huge difference there. never thought it would be that much. thanks for the clips!

[blewsbreaker]

Wow, great test!
Thanks J45.

[tooold]

Good grief! That's a difference. Looking forward to trying this on my '67.

But to add a little something different to the thread... nice LA-2A! Original or Historic Reissue?

Myles, hopelessly conflicted between old recording gear and old guitars...

[scottlr]

OK, not looking at what was what in the clips, just numbering them 1-6, I thought they all sounded great, except for #s 3 & 5, which were very thin and Not near as rich sounding.

Then I listened to your Crossroads clip/ You nail the tone pretty damn good imho!

[j45]

Originally Posted by tooold

Good grief! That's a difference. Looking forward to trying this on my '67.

But to add a little something different to the thread... nice LA-2A! Original or Historic Reissue?

Myles, hopelessly conflicted between old recording gear and old guitars...

if you do, a '67 is probably a real winner because they usually have incredible pickups that are being masked by the Varitone. Your guitar will sound like a PAF dot neck and you probably didn't have to spend $25k

The compressor is an LA-2A reissue. I've got a ton of tube outboard gear and great vintage tube and ribbon mics (telefunken,coles,etc.) but have really been getting into recording with SM57's for everything and learning to use ambient space to control the sound. I'm getting ready to post some clips using two 57's overhead and an RE-20 for kick, just three mics to mic drums, 57's for guitar and bass and virtualy NO processing. Amazing what you can do if you learn to use the room to do the work. That, and good sounding instruments!

[tooold]

Originally Posted by j45

if you do, a '67 is probably a real winner because they usually have incredible pickups that are being masked by the Varitone. Your guitar will sound like a PAF dot neck and you probably didn't have to spend $25k

The compressor is an LA-2A reissue. I've got a ton of tube outboard gear and great vintage tube and ribbon mics (telefunken,coles,etc.) but have really been getting into recording with SM57's for everything and learning to use ambient space to control the sound. I'm getting ready to post some clips using two 57's overhead and an RE-20 for kick, just three mics to mic drums, 57's for guitar and bass and virtualy NO processing. Amazing what you can do if you learn to use the room to do the work. That, and good sounding instruments!

Amen. Also helps if the room sounds good...

Thanks again for the clips.

Myles

[Dr. Vintage]

Originally Posted by Michael Minnis

Once again, I'd like to thank Rick and Kerry for all their help. They never once pushed their opinions on me, but they did help turn this 345 into the guitar I believed it could be when I bought it in Arlington.

I definitely would love to hear you playing at full inspiration on that guitar. Your playing has been very good to listen to the few times I've had the pleasure, and you're probably somethin' else altogether on a guitar that does 'it' for you.

[donGrafico]

Nice clips, thanks.

Any thoughts on how much of the tonal variance is due to removing weight and clutter from the air pocket in the lower bout?

[Michael Minnis]

Originally Posted by mofinco

I definitely would love to hear you playing at full inspiration on that guitar. Your playing has been very good to listen to the few times I've had the pleasure, and you're probably somethin' else altogether on a guitar that does 'it' for you.

Thanks, Rick. That's very kind. I hope our band makes it to your neck of the woods soon. Of course, there's always the Dallas show, too. I had another rehearsal last night. The bassist said it's very clear how much more comfortable I am on the 345 than the Strat I was playing previously. I am totally loving this guitar. Thanks again for all your help!

[CDaughtry]

Wow Kerry.....I think anyone with ears can hear that dramatic difference. That's certainly, and I think, unquestionably, a significant change for the better. And those clips are entirely consistent with the experience I have tried to describe in the other thread.....

[billys]

Nice job on these clips Kerry. Real cool way to hear an a/b comparison with & w/o the VT circuit. Thanks for taking the time to post 'em up.

Originally Posted by j45

A lot has been said and guessed about the 345 Varitone but very few have tested their guitars with and without. I've heard six of mine to date with and without VT's and the results have always been the same. Here's a clip of a 1964 ES345 with maroon wire wound PAT sticker pickups which are in fact short magnet PAF's that received early PAT stickers. I recorded the guitar without an amp, directly into a Roland VS2480 using the same channel in default settings with no EQ. Not a great way to get tone but a great way to hear the naked sound of a pickup and the effect of the circuit.

This is all recorded in the 345's VT switch position one which is the closest the guitar allows to a bypass. The comparitive clip that follows each pickup is recorded with the circuit out of the guitar. First the neck p/u with the VT, then with the circuit removed, then the bridge position with and without, then the middle positon, with and without the circuit in place. I think this wil answer the question of how much affect the Varitone has on the guitars pickups and whether or not there is a true bypass available.


here's the track log and times of what you are hearing

0:03 - Neck pickup with varitone in Bypass position
0:17 - Neck pickup with circuit removed

0:29 - Bridge pickup with varitone in bypass position
0:41 - Bridge pickup with circuit removed

0:54 - middle position with varitone in bypass position
1:07 - middle position with circuit removed

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/song...songID=4658561


http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=589296