Neck Pickup Magnet Flip

duaneflowers · Oct 2, 2014

This would explain why our own Rev.WillieVK found a magnet flip but brings me back to my original pondering of what the actual tonal difference would be between a magnet flip and reverse winding?

Anyone have any insight into this? :hmm

yeti · Oct 2, 2014

duaneflowers said:
This would explain why our own Rev.WillieVK found a magnet flip but brings me back to my original pondering of what the actual tonal difference would be between a magnet flip and reverse winding?

Anyone have any insight into this? :hmm

yes, here is my insight:
There are those who believe it sounds different and then there are those who don't.

eace2

Big Al · Oct 2, 2014

So much misconception and just plain guessing and fable spinning, ... :##

Peter Greens Les Paul's neck pickup has the magnet flipped for an "out of phase" tone when both pickups are selected and set too comparable levels on the pickup volume controls.

It makes no difference at all which way it faces.

Gibson did NOT make OOP Humbuckers for Customs. The OOP thing Page was referring too is the same thing you get with a Strat. Canceled or reduced frequencies that occur with closely placed pickups. Not out of phase.

No one reverses the Stock PAF style wiring to get OOP. Why would you ground your hot wire and hook up the shield as hot???
You could dismantle your pickup and hook up a 3 conductor, ground, top send, bottom send connection, then wire the OOP send wire hot and ground the other two, OR you could simply flip the magnet. Guitars that use a switch for selecting phase use at least a 3 conductor pickup lead, like the DiMarzio PAF, or 4 conductor pickup wiring like some Burstbuckers and Duncan, DiMarzio and others that can also be used for coil selecting and series/parallel switching.

This subject has been discussed so many times it really makes me wonder if anyone has paid attention, or just chosen to ignore the million and a half posts on this.

This easy mod makes for a much greater range of tones and loses very little. The interplay of tones and shadings available, I find useful and expressive.

brandtkronholm · Oct 2, 2014

For another discussion on the same topic (magnet flipping, etc.) that does not seem to have a definitive conclusion, please check out the following:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=186881

Post #14 by Mike S. is particularly interesting.

brandtkronholm · Oct 2, 2014

Moreover, why doesn't the Switchmaster seem to have the same "OOP" qualities as the 3 pickup Les Paul Custom? I can't recall ever hearing an OOP Switchmaster myself. For that matter, I've never heard anyone say that a Switchmaster is OOP.

Here's Gibson's description:
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Archtop/Gibson-Custom/ES-5-Switchmaster/Features.aspx

From the Switchmaster description:

With the addition of the pickups and a new four-way toggle switch, players had complete tonal control of each pickup and could select whether to play one, two, or all three at one time – or any combination of the three – simply by turning down the volume of the unwanted pickup(s).

duaneflowers · Oct 2, 2014

brandtkronholm said:
Moreover, why doesn't the Switchmaster seem to have the same "OOP" qualities as the 3 pickup Les Paul Custom? I can't recall ever hearing an OOP Switchmaster myself. For that matter, I've never heard anyone say that a Switchmaster is OOP.

Here's Gibson's description:
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/Archtop/Gibson-Custom/ES-5-Switchmaster/Features.aspx

From the Switchmaster description:

The distance between pickups is greater on the SwitchMaster than the LesterMaster... that may account for at least some of the difference... the hollowness of the ES would also come into play and I'm not sure about the dynamics of the 57 buckers and how they interact with that hollowness and distance...

soulbrojcs · Oct 2, 2014

Thanks Big Al for the clarification on the Page thing. never really experienced this, just going only by what I've read in his interviews. and I'm sure there has been many discussions on this subject here in the past, but as with almost anything else I've seen posted here, all subjects are more than likely to come up over and over (and hopefully bringing some sort of new light on the subjects at hand). on another note, I actually used my Les Paul (with this mod) on a mostly acoustic gig last night. three of us, the two other guys paying acoustic, and me switching off between acoustic and electric. I would normally take a Tele or Strat for this gig, but the OOF sounds I now get from my LP fit right in. I'm really finding it to have a much better cording/rhythm sound than before, and as we all know, that's a big percentage of a gig. for me, it's become a more versatile sounding instrument, and I'm personally digging the hell out of it!!! ;-)

soulbrojcs · Oct 12, 2014

Big Al said:
Gibson did NOT make OOP Humbuckers for Customs. The OOP thing Page was referring too is the same thing you get with a Strat. Canceled or reduced frequencies that occur with closely placed pickups. Not out of phase.

Regarding this factory magnet flip subject, I just read again, in Robb Lawrence's first Les Paul book that Gibson did use reverse magnets in the middle PU of the 3 PU Customs. and not only that, but supposedly in the stereo versions of the 345 and 355. if this is true, and I've heard this from other sources as well, then the whole theory of Greens guitar coming from the factory with one of these intentionally reversed PU's makes as much (or more) sense to me than any other theory I've heard. can anyone with any of these vintage models mentioned confirm or deny this?

Django2014 · Oct 15, 2014

I have to ask, what is the obsession with the OOP flipped magnet tone? It sounds cool, but not something I would want all the time, to each their own, I'm just curious

Ad_02Std · Oct 15, 2014

It's when you start messing with the volume and tone balance between the pickups that the out-of-phase thing really comes to life. There are a lot of new, rather vocal sounding subtleties available there.

sidekick · Oct 15, 2014

While I can't either confirm or deny the use of reverse magnets from factory, during the mid/late 90's, I owned a cherry red 1960 ES 335 which had an OOP sound when the middle switch was selected and it was reckoned by a seasoned player who owned it prior, that it was original and untampered ... Curiously enough, it was the guitar that was used when a bogus Peter Green appeared just before Peter Green actually returned to playing with the Splinter Group. This bogus 'Peter Green', (subsequently becoming known as 'the Egg & Potato man') fooled a few people in the recording business where it was used on a couple of demo tracks by the previous owner because it had "that sound".

As to the theory that Peter Green's Burst neck pickup was like that originally, more than likely, not so... It's known Peter Green had problems with it, (it was missing when 'The Supernatural' was recorded when PG was with John Mayall) and the consensus of opinion that I have seen over the years, swings more to the story that it was repaired by an individual known as 'Sam Lee', who, (AFAIK) was probably not the best repairer in the business, although there were very few, (then) around....

Tim Mills of Bare Knuckle pickups said this some years ago:

"It's a common misconception that the Peter Green neck p/up is reverse polarity.Having spoken with the man who repaired it I can confirm it was rewound in reverse with heavy formvar and not simply a flipped magnet.We don't wire our neck out of phase we actually reverse wind the coils and that's where the tone lies. Either flipping the magnet OR reverse winding will not effect the neck tone on it's own however it does effect the middle position which becomes out of phase with the bridge. This is the way Peter Greens LP was configured-by accident due to the neck p/up repair- and so we make our set the same way.Many 'gurus' claim to know the secret of the Peter Green tone but none of them have actually found out. Having gone into considerable depth with not only Sam Lee who did the repair but also Charlie Chandler who repaired the LP after a car accident that Peter had I'm confident I've gotten to the bottom of it.The final proof is the people that play them, not only Gary Moore ! who's owned the original LP longest and plays the PG Blues set now but also guys like Bernie Marsden, Geoff Whitehorn etc all who know the tone inside out say we've nailed it. kind regards Tim"

As to 'how good' the Bare Knuckle PG pickups sound, listen to this youtube link with a set in a Les Paul type guitar in the hands a good player .. ☛ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8DFr-R5dE

They certainly sound great to my ears and I'm thinking of trying a set in my Les Paul to compare with the current magnet flipped Holmes.

Django2014 · Oct 15, 2014

I've read that it wasn't flipped from the factory, but that the neck pickup needed repair and when it was reassembled the guy put it in backwards, you can tell it has been repaired since the hookup wire is not correct at all.

And I do believe some pickups did sneak out with a flipped magnet, ex. Joe Bonamassa's Magellan. Joe has stated the guitar has a flipped magnet from the factory

Flying Fish · Oct 15, 2014

Trying to pin down exactly what happened and when to that guitar is like questioning a whore in an old age home about the "particulars" of customers during her glory days... "Did he have a mole there? How large was it, what about a scare? Tipping up or down...."

duaneflowers · Oct 15, 2014

Django2014 said:
I have to ask, what is the obsession with the OOP flipped magnet tone? It sounds cool, but not something I would want all the time, to each their own, I'm just curious

IMHO I don't think its an obsession, but more of an option. The OOP only truly kicks in when the volume knobs are perfectly situated and then only when you are using the middle pickup selection (which in many cases is not used as much as the other two anywayz). Without dialing it in the OOP effect is rather minimal and inconsequential, making the pickups pretty much just like any other set. So fundamentally, its just an optional tone you have on tap that you can't get any other way, and in certain cases it sounds pretty damn cool.

The set of GreenFazes I just received from Deacci is reverse wound and flipped and when they are dialed in they sound great. I don't use the OOP all the time, but when I want it, I have it. Declan did a great job winding those and I am really digging the sound which comes pretty close to the set in my Greeny CC.

I also tend to prefer certain guitars for certain songs, so, for example, next month I've been asked to play Peter Green's Albatross at a local benefit show, and I feel it just has more of that classic ethereal sound when the OOP is available and so I would naturally prefer that guitar with those pickups in that case. With a Beano Boost, the same guitar will nail Clapton's Hideaway tone (another song that has been requested) so I am not losing anything at all by having OOP pickups installed.

So my own take on it is that its basically just another assault weapon in the tonal armory. :salude

duaneflowers · Oct 16, 2014

Rude Dog said:
Trying to pin down exactly what happened and when to that guitar is like questioning a whore in an old age home about the "particulars" of customers during her glory days... "Did he have a mole there? How large was it, what about a scare? Tipping up or down...."

Are you insinuating that from 1958 to 1960 the House of Gibson was in fact a bordello? :hee

soulbrojcs · Oct 16, 2014

As for any problems with his pickup, according to Peter Green himself, he stated that he simply saw Clapton playing on the rear pickup all night and sounded wonderful, so he just took it out for a while. now, if you notice, the pole pieces were facing the bridge when it was put back on. I personally think Green did this himself, and put it in that way on mistake. I would have to question, why would a repairman remove the magnet from a pickup? you don't have to do that to rewire one (or both) of the bobbins, and yes, it COULD have accidentally fallen out and put back in the "wrong" way, but just like the pole pieces facing the "wrong" way, I seriously doubt that a repairman would be THAT careless. but I will also go along with the confirmation from Gary Moore and Jol Dantzig from Hamer guitars who measured the actual neck pickup in the Green burst and said it's magnet WAS reverse of the magnet in the bridge pickup. I watched the repairman measure both my pickups with his meter when I had my neck magnet flipped, so it's an easy thing to do, pretty hard to mistake when you measure it, and ESPECIALLY if you had the actual instrument in question in hand, like Moore/Dantzig did.

And as for why, I can only attest that for me, I now LOVE the middle setting, whereas I did not before. I can get a much thinner sound for chording/rhythm sounds, and in the quieter parts of songs, it provides a much broader pallet of sounds for soloing to draw from.

Also, I've been doing a little research, and it appears that Gibson did in fact make humbuckers with reverse magnets for the 3 pickup Les Pauls middle position, and the stereo 345 and 355 guitars. so the theory that Greens Les Paul was shipped from the factory with the pickup with a reverse magnet like that by mistake sounds more believable to me than anything else.

All in all, my Les Paul now gives me a LOT more tonal choices and colors to pull from with this mod. may not be for everyone, but in reality, what is? and you gotta admit there's just something to it... we're all STILL talking about Greens tone almost 50 years later. ;-)

yeti · Oct 16, 2014

OOP sounds are cool, doesn't matter how you get them. The end.

Neck Pickup Magnet Flip

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