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Historic Les Pauls vs. Tokai Les Pauls

Andrius D

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Aug 16, 2015
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9
but at the end of the day they're not much more than forgeries, hence the lawsuit :jim

I know this is a long dead topic, but if anyone reads this, I want to say this: this is so wrong. A forgery suggest that the item looks like the real thing but is inherently of a worse quality. Forgery also suggests that the item cost less to produce, involves a lot of corner-cutting and the sole purpose of it is to trick people into paying way more than this item is worth just because it looks like the real thing. A forgery is a form of fraud.

But it's not the case with these guitars! These guitars are made with high quality in mind, to be great guitars on their own and not to trick their owners. When one sees a Tokai guitar in a shop, they know they are buying a Tokai guitar, not a Gibson guitar, so they know what are paying for and what they are getting for their money. They may be visually identical to Gibsons, but they clearly indicate that they are not Gibsons on the headstock.
Plus keep in mind they started producing these so-called "lawsuit" guitars at the time when Gibson didn't make good quality production Les Pauls, so you can't call these companies frauds because they offered guitar players great production (that is non-custom shop) instruments that they could not get from Gibson at that time.
 

Progrocker111

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Dec 10, 2003
Messages
4,013
Plus keep in mind they started producing these so-called "lawsuit" guitars at the time when Gibson didn't make good quality production Les Pauls, so you can't call these companies frauds because they offered guitar players great production (that is non-custom shop) instruments that they could not get from Gibson at that time.

Oh, classical myth about bad quality Norlins. :rolleyes:

Dont forget too, that many of these lawsuit copies were in fact copies of the Gibson 70s era Les pauls with 3 piece necks and pancake body for example, especially in late 70s.
 
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shred

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Nov 13, 2003
Messages
4,667
I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Progrocker111... As someone with an extensive experience of Norlins and recent Historics, I've got nothing but good things to say about Norlins ---especially the early years... Norlins can hold their own :yah
 

Classic

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Dec 6, 2004
Messages
1,624
I know this is a long dead topic, but if anyone reads this, I want to say this: this is so wrong. A forgery suggest that the item looks like the real thing but is inherently of a worse quality. Forgery also suggests that the item cost less to produce, involves a lot of corner-cutting and the sole purpose of it is to trick people into paying way more than this item is worth just because it looks like the real thing. A forgery is a form of fraud.

But it's not the case with these guitars! These guitars are made with high quality in mind, to be great guitars on their own and not to trick their owners. When one sees a Tokai guitar in a shop, they know they are buying a Tokai guitar, not a Gibson guitar, so they know what are paying for and what they are getting for their money. They may be visually identical to Gibsons, but they clearly indicate that they are not Gibsons on the headstock.
Plus keep in mind they started producing these so-called "lawsuit" guitars at the time when Gibson didn't make good quality production Les Pauls, so you can't call these companies frauds because they offered guitar players great production (that is non-custom shop) instruments that they could not get from Gibson at that time.

It's a minor point in the whole argument but I disagree with this interpretation of 'forgery'. This may be your interpretation however it's not the generally accepted, or dictionary, definition.

A forgery is a fake. It's an attempt to create something and sell it as something it is not. A replica which has the Gibson name and overall appointments, which is marketed as an original Gibson is a forgery. The sale itself is the deceit and punishable act but the item in question is a fake/forgery.

The quality of the item doesn't come into question.

If someone duplicates a well known painting, it's not called a replica. If someone duplicates a Les Paul, it is called a replica. They're eventually the same thing, just called something more acceptable.
 

Thomas/Sweden

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Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
196
Just want to say that I own vintage and new Tokai's and they are great sounding, playing LP style guitars, just like the recent years Historics I have. The luthier has done a good job on all of them, except for the 2013 Tokai LS116F which was great out of the box and the 2014 R9 Honeyburst which was setup very well by the seller.

1978 LS100:

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tonedrip

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Mar 18, 2005
Messages
56
I have a 1979 Reborn LS60 that I gutted , and rewired 50s style , top notch pots/caps etc. Also swapped out original pickups with old Seth Lover / BB2 bridge . This thing rings off the hook !

My friends with VOS LPs have been very impressed . I Can't afford a CS , so I am very happy .... picked it up locally for $700 CDN . :dude:








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Andrius D

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Aug 16, 2015
Messages
9
It's a minor point in the whole argument but I disagree with this interpretation of 'forgery'. This may be your interpretation however it's not the generally accepted, or dictionary, definition.

A forgery is a fake. It's an attempt to create something and sell it as something it is not. A replica which has the Gibson name and overall appointments, which is marketed as an original Gibson is a forgery. The sale itself is the deceit and punishable act but the item in question is a fake/forgery.

The quality of the item doesn't come into question.

If someone duplicates a well known painting, it's not called a replica. If someone duplicates a Les Paul, it is called a replica. They're eventually the same thing, just called something more acceptable.

Okay, I agree, but you're missing a very important detail: these guitars did not have 'Gibson' on their headstocks and they had whatver brand name that was producing them. So while they were using Gibson design, they weren't trying to fool people into thinking they are buying an actual Gibson.
In your analogy with paintings this would make a difference. When someone forges a painting, they also forges the artists signature in order to sell that painting for more just because it's the original thing. But if someone just paints a replica painting and signs with their own name, then everyone knows it's not the original and no one is tricked into buying something they didn't expect.

As for the quality of the item... how can it not come into question? Of course lawyers fighting against forgeries don't care about the quality of the item, so it never comes into question. But for users of things, it matters a lot. If you buy a fake Rolex, you are not only buying a forgery, you are also buying a watch that's inherently of a lower quality than a real Rolex.
 

Andrius D

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Aug 16, 2015
Messages
9
Oh, classical myth about bad quality Norlins. :rolleyes:

Dont forget too, that many of these lawsuit copies were in fact copies of the Gibson 70s era Les pauls with 3 piece necks and pancake body for example, especially in late 70s.

There's more to it than the number of pieces.

As for Norlin era Gibsons being good... I can't comment on that, I just want to point out that there are people who complain about them. The same way people complain about modern Gibsons. What that means is that Gibson guitars (Standard range) aren't of consistent quality, and they weren't in the Norlin era either. That's why a lot of people didn't like them.
 

Andrius D

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Aug 16, 2015
Messages
9
You guys need to realize that classic dictionary definitions of forgeries don't apply to guitars. Guitar designs are not copyrightable. If Fender and Gibson could copyright their designs, there wouldn't be so many other guitar makers. Or they would come up with some of the other weird shapes like they came up with in the sixties and which people didn't like. A guitar is not about the visuals - it's about how it works in the first place.

If we're talking about forgeries, what about Charvel guitars? They're Stratocaster forgeries. Now they're owned by Fender, but back in the day they weren't. But no one points that out. Why? Because they did some minor modifications, like fitting a Floyd Rose and adding one more fret? That's nonsense - they were 'forgeries' in almost the same sense as Tokais were. I said 'in almost the same sense' because I'm aware that Tokais went one step further and tried to make it visually identical to a Gibson. And that's their only fault: it's not that they took Gibson's design, but that they meticulously replicated the guitar visually.

In guitar world, most things are copies. You wouldn't have superstrats if Stratocaster design was copyrighted. You have to think differently when it comes to guitars.
 

albatros1980

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Jan 16, 2016
Messages
1
I have a 90's Tokai Love Rock, which is a fantastic instrument. I had to upgrade the pickups, the wiring and the hardware to get the best out of it though. But then, that's what a lot of people do with Historics, right? As far as I can tell the Tokai LS1-R9, the closest model to the Historic R9, is selling in Germany for around $3500 including Lifton case. We can't get one here in the US though... :)

Hello Guys,
i'm a recent owner of a '79 LS-80 TOKAI Reborn.. All original Parts and i'm very happy with this guitar but i think it can do more.
I'm thinking to change the electronics parts and the pick ups but i don't know witch could be the correct options.




I would like something near the P.A.F. tone...

Could you tell be about our opinion ?

Any of you has experienced a change in electronics and pickups in a similar guitar?

Thanks u in advanced and sorry for my horrible english.

LDB
 

c_wester

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Joined
May 9, 2002
Messages
2,116
If you want to kill of some of the blanket sound in the historics you could put in vintage Tokai humbuckers.
That says something about the quality of the tokai pickups.

I just bought 2 sister Tokai Love Rocks from 1984, 12 serials apart a put grovers on one of them as the Klusons were dying.
That made a small improvement but all my Tokais are getting grovers.

With the heavier headstocks the sustain and response increase a tiny bit in a already whipsnapping responsive guitar.

I would keep the original pickups and do NOT change the pots as Tokai pots are far better than anything you can get a hold of today.


Also not all historics have the blanket sound going by my experience.
 

DanD

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Apr 8, 2007
Messages
2,368
I tend to agree that the pups in older late 70s early 80s model Tokais are very good. I've owned several and never felt the pickups were lacking in any way.

An '80' model designation means that it's advertised price was 80,000 yen or ~ $800 US. That was quite a chunk of change in 1979.

In comparison to like models in the late 70s I'd take a '79 Tokai '80' Strat clone over any '79 Fender Strat I've ever played.

LPs tended to be better than Fenders during this era but the Tokai LPs were usually much lighter and built closer to vintage spec the American LPs. :peace2
 

Overdriver

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
1,047
Hello Guys,
i'm a recent owner of a '79 LS-80 TOKAI Reborn.. All original Parts and i'm very happy with this guitar but i think it can do more.
I'm thinking to change the electronics parts and the pick ups but i don't know witch could be the correct options.




I would like something near the P.A.F. tone...

Could you tell be about our opinion ?

Any of you has experienced a change in electronics and pickups in a similar guitar?

Thanks u in advanced and sorry for my horrible english.

LDB
I tried various boutique and non-boutique pickups in my Tokai Love Rock, but settled on Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers. :salude
 

CAGinLA

Active member
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
489
The vintage and modern high end Tokais are great, but the modern low- and mid-level stuff is pretty average. I would still choose an Historic over a vintage or modern high end Tokai.
 

Schneidas15

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Messages
222
I have a entry level made in Japan LS100 Tokai at home - which is on par (if not better) with any US production Gibson I've ever owned.

So coming from that, I'm currently looking at high end Tokai's and came across this one on Ebay, which the seller claims even uses Honduran Mahogany as well as Madagascar Rosewood:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tokai-Love-...piece-Honduran-Mahogany-Gibson-/141907236825?

What do you think? Worth it? I might make him an offer as it's just out of my price range though...
 
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matt1981

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Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
40
Haven't played a new one. But I have a 1980 burst replica that was build at Fuji Gen. And to be honest, that kicks major a.. .

I've compared it to a lot of custom shop Gibsons and the fact is: I liked mine better! It sounded much more open, dynamic and had that certain shimmer. I've recently A/Bed it against a 2015 R9 and a True Historic as well as CC models. The Gibsons couldn't stand a chance. And you have to consider that mine has a really thick poly and a short neck tenon.

But rumor has it that these old Japanese models have incredbly great and old wood, especially the mahagony. Pickups generally were crap, but Change the electrics and you have one fine guitar.
 

zoork_1

Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
66
I have spent hours on listening to live recorded 1957-60's burst and have had the opportunity to play a 1960 burst.

I've also put a lot of effort and money to get my No.1 into vintage burst territory (vintage long magnet PAF's, Centralab pots, Bumblebees, studs, tailpiece, ABR-1, round core Ni strings, etc.) and people say I'm close. I tested several PAF's and Patent No's before I settled on a set.

To sum it up, I thought I knew this area quite well. Still, when Doug and Pat aka "The Doug and Pat Show" compared a number of guitars in a blind test (think it was a Heritage H-150 Les Paul, a 70's Tokai, a real deal burst and a 58 gold top) I actually guessed that the Tokai was the burst:bug

Lesson learned? Not sure, you tell me...
 

Big Al

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Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
Haven't played a new one. But I have a 1980 burst replica that was build at Fuji Gen. And to be honest, that kicks major a.. .

I've compared it to a lot of custom shop Gibsons and the fact is: I liked mine better! It sounded much more open, dynamic and had that certain shimmer. I've recently A/Bed it against a 2015 R9 and a True Historic as well as CC models. The Gibsons couldn't stand a chance. And you have to consider that mine has a really thick poly and a short neck tenon.

But rumor has it that these old Japanese models have incredbly great and old wood, especially the mahagony. Pickups generally were crap, but Change the electrics and you have one fine guitar.

Maybe you just prefer cheap Japanese tone?
I have a preference for USA guitars. I find your post as having found something you like. I'm sure I would prefer my USA Gibsons. I've compared many, way different conclusion.
 
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