Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior?

68goldtop · 11-03-09, 12:36 PM

Hi guys!

i´d like to ask for your opinions and expertise regarding a a possible trade I´ve been offered.

I have a very nice ´66/´67 ES125 TC (thinline, ice-tea burst, single neck P90 w/chrome cover). it´s in very nice condition and sounds and plays well. however, it´s not my favourite guitar as i seem to be more of a "rock" player...
now, the 125 seems a bit "weak" in some regards - the short neck is not as comfy as other guitars i own, and it´s a bit too warm/whooley sounding at times...
but it has its strong points, too. like, it´s beautiful and light-weight, it sounds soulful and you get great natural feedback whenever you want to got there.

now i´ve been offered a trade for a ´69 Sg Junior, which is among the most likeable guitars in my opinion - but i havn´t had a chance to play or see it.
it´s said to have a rather fat neck, which is a plus in my book.

i don´t have a lot of details regarding the condition, yet, but assuming it´s in equally nice shape, what are your opinions regarding the respective values - or am i completely nuts for even considering this trade?

thanks a lot in advance!

- 68.

j45 · 11-03-09, 12:48 PM

I think it's a fair trade. I would probably favor the Junior in that deal.

rockabilly69 · 11-03-09, 01:05 PM

Sounds like the SG would be more suited to your style.

68goldtop · 11-03-09, 01:45 PM

thanks a lot guys!

makes me feel much better ;)

i´ll get in touch with the guy and see what i can find out about the SG.
the good thing is, he´s only 40 miles away...

thanks again - 68.

68goldtop · 11-04-09, 09:58 AM

i have a related question...

seems the sg is in nice shape, except for a bit "funky"-looking headstock-logo.
need to see a close-up, yet...

it does come with the little tremolo-thing.
i LOVE tremolos, but i keep hearing that these particular units were unuseable and have to be taken off in order to be able to even play the guitar.
is that true, or would it serve me for some slight bigsby-type warble?

thanks again!

- 68.

jeffc · 11-04-09, 10:31 AM

Reading your post i found obvious that the ES-125 won't stay with you for long. In that regard, the trade witha guitar that might suit you better is inevitable. I would do it.

bobore · 11-04-09, 10:44 AM

Play it first, and check it over carefully. Neck angle & relief okay, etc? You don't want to get it home, and in your excitement have missed something important. Your es125 sounds sweet and has value, so make sure the SG is free of serious problems.

j45 · 11-04-09, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68goldtop

i have a related question...

seems the sg is in nice shape, except for a bit "funky"-looking headstock-logo.
need to see a close-up, yet...

it does come with the little tremolo-thing.
i LOVE tremolos, but i keep hearing that these particular units were unuseable and have to be taken off in order to be able to even play the guitar.
is that true, or would it serve me for some slight bigsby-type warble?

thanks again!

- 68.

The logos can get pretty "funky" looking in that late 60/early 70 period. The paint is stenciled over as solid "pearl" block and if it cracks or flakes off it can leave an odd looking shape with no distinct letters. I've always had good luck with vibrola trems if used conservatively and the guitar is well set-up.

loufed52 · 11-04-09, 12:57 PM

All of my SGs have Vibrolas and I've never had a problem with them.

However, you can remove the Vibrola on an SG Junior or an SG Special and all that you will have is 3 screw holes.

You will do no damage and you can always put it back on.

You can then use the bridge as a wraparound tailpiece, but if your bridge is original buy a repro wraparound so you don't damage the original.

68goldtop · 11-05-09, 02:10 AM

hi guys!

thanks again for your thoughts!

this will be an in-person deal, so i´m quite confident that i won´t get into something i don´t really want/need.

i´ll let you all know how it turns out!

good news about the vibrola, too!

cheers - 68.

Overdriven66 · 11-05-09, 08:56 PM

I agree that the SG might be more suited to your style. IMO the '68 and up SG's are not as valuable as the earlier batwings but if it is structurally sound, it sounds like a fair deal. Make sure the pickup is original 60's....many are swapped out for those $20 GFS and similar pickups that are all over Ebay. In all my years of owning many, many 60's SG's, there are 'straight ones',and ones that have been 'around the block'. Make sure that the tuners haven't been off/on and all the usual detective work it takes to make sure it is a good one. If you don't plan to use the vibrato, take it off or just use the wrap. The Tone Pros wrap is KILLER and doesn't require alterations to the guitar. With proper setup and a PROPERLY cut nut, I have found the Maestro to be totally useful, but don't expect Strat type expectations out of it.

68goldtop · 11-06-09, 02:13 PM

hi guys!

alright. i met the guy and i have the guitar here with me now. we agreed that we´d swap the guitars for a couple of days and see how it works for each of us.
he seemed happy with the es125 and i´m happy with the sg junior.
it´s been around the block, but it´s not "worn" and it seems mostly original as far as i can tell.
it sounds nice, even and resonant unplugged, but it´s late and i havn´t had a chance to really crank it up.
the pickup looks old and it reads 7.7 kO.

i have a couple of questions regarding the construction - if you´re willing to bear with me...

the neck is VERY fat. i´d say it´s close to the current ´57 les paul reissues.
still bearable, but i´ll have to get used to it.
the headstock has the smaller neck-angle - like my ´68 goldtop - so that seems right for the time, doesn´t it?
the serial-# is 906xxx which would make it a ´68 rather than a ´69 - but that´s no big deal (at least i don´t think so...).

what puzzles me is, that the neck seems to be made of 3 pieces while the body is rather clearly one piece.
also, probably due to the fact that the neck-shape is so "healthy", there´s a small "volute" near the headstock which is rather thin in comparison to the neck-profile.

does it all add up?

i´ll take a couple of pictures tomorrow and i could mail them to anyone who´d like to share some insight.

thanks again!

cheers - 68.

p.s.: the maestro/vibrola seems fine for now.

loufed52 · 11-06-09, 04:27 PM

If it's got a 3 piece fat neck and a volute it can't be a '68- it has to be '69 or '70.

The 3 piece neck is not an issue as far as I'm concerned- it's more rigid than the 1 piece neck, and they seem to hold tune pretty well.

The headstock angle is 14 degrees rather than 17 degrees, as you've already noticed.

If the Gibson logo on the headstock has no dot over the i that would seal the '69/70 year.

j45 · 11-06-09, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68goldtop

hi guys!

alright. i met the guy and i have the guitar here with me now. we agreed that we´d swap the guitars for a couple of days and see how it works for each of us.
he seemed happy with the es125 and i´m happy with the sg junior.
it´s been around the block, but it´s not "worn" and it seems mostly original as far as i can tell.
it sounds nice, even and resonant unplugged, but it´s late and i havn´t had a chance to really crank it up.
the pickup looks old and it reads 7.7 kO.

i have a couple of questions regarding the construction - if you´re willing to bear with me...

the neck is VERY fat. i´d say it´s close to the current ´57 les paul reissues.
still bearable, but i´ll have to get used to it.
the headstock has the smaller neck-angle - like my ´68 goldtop - so that seems right for the time, doesn´t it?
the serial-# is 906xxx which would make it a ´68 rather than a ´69 - but that´s no big deal (at least i don´t think so...).

what puzzles me is, that the neck seems to be made of 3 pieces while the body is rather clearly one piece.
also, probably due to the fact that the neck-shape is so "healthy", there´s a small "volute" near the headstock which is rather thin in comparison to the neck-profile.

does it all add up?

i´ll take a couple of pictures tomorrow and i could mail them to anyone who´d like to share some insight.

thanks again!

cheers - 68.

p.s.: the maestro/vibrola seems fine for now.

Yes, as someone just said probably a '69/'70 like you thought regardless of the serial number which can easily overlap the general guidelines of charts. Features would usually overide the serial in this case. It would definitely fall into '69/'70 production features. Some people tend to think the three piece neck was some kind of a step down in quality. Gibson had been using three piece (and more) necks on their top of the line Super 400s L-5s J-200s, Byrdlands, etc for decades before. Although it probably did allow them to use smaller scraps of mahogany, the design is very sound and can make for a more stable neck than a one piece.

Overdriven66 · 11-06-09, 08:52 PM

The value of this guitar goes down as this thread moves forward. The post '67 SG's are not as desireable value wise or quality wise . Good thing you are using the resources here.... this deal is heading south as we gather info on what this SG is really about. The more info the better.

Gibsonian · 11-06-09, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j45

The logos can get pretty "funky" looking in that late 60/early 70 period. The paint is stenciled over as solid "pearl" block and if it cracks or flakes off it can leave an odd looking shape with no distinct letters.

It's a Junior, so it should have a decal, not an inlaid logo.

Gibsonian · 11-07-09, 12:13 AM

6-digit serial numbers starting with 9 were used in the early-70's as well. This could be a '70, '71 or '72 (which I believe is the last year for those large-guard SGs.)

Is there a "Made in USA" stamp on the back of the peghead?

68goldtop · 11-07-09, 02:23 AM

thanks again guys!

good to hear that the 3-piece neck is a non-issue.

i found some pics online and it seems like the electronics in mine havn´t been touched - they look just like the one on the net, with the orange disc-cap and the black plastic-jack.

like this:

(http://www.wutzdog-guitars.de/xtras/...son-sg-junior/)

it seems i was a bit unprecise about the "volute"...
it´s not like the volute seen on later guitars, it´s more like a downward-hump as the hefty neck ends at the skinny headstock.

also, there´s no "made in the usa" on the back of the headstock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overdriven66

The value of this guitar goes down as this thread moves forward ... this deal is heading south as we gather info on what this SG is really about...

hi overdriven!

why do you think so?
the guitar was advertised as a ´69 from the get-go, and it seems like everything´s straight and legit so far. no breaks, no repairs, no changed parts as far as i can tell...

cheers - 68.

edit:

no dot on the "i" of the logo, no "made in the usa" on the back - so it´s most likely a ´69, right?

it also came with a rectangular case with gold lining. black case with no "gibson"-logo on the outside, but a small leather-strap inside (to lay across the neck and keep the guitar in place) which reads "gibson" in silver letters.
does anyone know this case? might it be original to the guitar?

Gibsonian · 11-07-09, 07:53 AM

According to the blue book 906xxx falls in 1968, but yours has a 3-piece neck... Could be a '70 that was made before they started "Made in USA."

The pot codes might be the next place to check to date the guitar.

Overdriven66 · 11-07-09, 08:49 AM

68, I'm probably being too critical of the post 68 SG's versus the earlier ones. Your guitar sounds like a nice straight piece. The headstock angle being shallower, and the big neck are different than the generally more desireable mid-60's SG's. If it all checks out and you are happy with the way it sounds and plays..cool!

jeffc · 11-07-09, 09:18 AM

Do you prefer it to your Es-125 ?

Henk · 11-07-09, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j45

I think it's a fair trade. I would probably favor the Junior in that deal.

+1

If its a reasonably(org pickups, pots and most hard to replace other parts) original SG i would take that deal.

j45 · 11-07-09, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overdriven66

The value of this guitar goes down as this thread moves forward. The post '67 SG's are not as desireable value wise or quality wise . Good thing you are using the resources here.... this deal is heading south as we gather info on what this SG is really about. The more info the better.

I would agree here and I'm also a big fan of the P-90 ES's BUT a many 60's ES-125's can be about the worst guitar you'll ever lay hands on. Before anyone gets upset if you do happen to have a good one they are wonderful but these are VERY inconsistent throughout the 60's. If his is not a particulartly good one it wouldn't be hard to beat with just about anything. I think the trade should be fine if he prefers the SG. The black/gold case is a good bonus score and should more than offset any current value issues.

68goldtop · 11-07-09, 06:03 PM

hi guys!

thanks again for your feedback!

well, here´s the scoop (for now anyway)...

i took the sg to our rehearsal-space and gave it a good run down with my amps and effects - as well as a close comparison to my (new-ish) sg standard.

the pickup sounds great - maybe even stellar. amazing range of tones available with just the two knobs.
the thing is, the guitar just doesn´t play that great...
my current standard is more comfortable overall, and while it doesn´t sound AS good, it still sounds pretty darn good in comparison.
the junior is nice, but it seems it´s too close a call to get rid of the es125 for it.

while the es125 might not suit my every-day needs very well, it could be there when i need/want something completely different...

mh, looks like i´ll call the guy tomorrow to get back the es125, but i´ll sleep over it ;)

again - thanks a lot for all your help!

cheers - 68.

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11-03-09, 12:36 PM	#1
68goldtop Formerly Omo Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 682	Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? Hi guys! i´d like to ask for your opinions and expertise regarding a a possible trade I´ve been offered. I have a very nice ´66/´67 ES125 TC (thinline, ice-tea burst, single neck P90 w/chrome cover). it´s in very nice condition and sounds and plays well. however, it´s not my favourite guitar as i seem to be more of a "rock" player... now, the 125 seems a bit "weak" in some regards - the short neck is not as comfy as other guitars i own, and it´s a bit too warm/whooley sounding at times... but it has its strong points, too. like, it´s beautiful and light-weight, it sounds soulful and you get great natural feedback whenever you want to got there. now i´ve been offered a trade for a ´69 Sg Junior, which is among the most likeable guitars in my opinion - but i havn´t had a chance to play or see it. it´s said to have a rather fat neck, which is a plus in my book. i don´t have a lot of details regarding the condition, yet, but assuming it´s in equally nice shape, what are your opinions regarding the respective values - or am i completely nuts for even considering this trade? thanks a lot in advance! - 68. Last edited by 68goldtop : 11-03-09 at 01:24 PM.

11-03-09, 12:48 PM	#2
j45 All Access/Backstage Pass Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 5,224	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? I think it's a fair trade. I would probably favor the Junior in that deal.

11-03-09, 01:05 PM	#3
rockabilly69 Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 644	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? Sounds like the SG would be more suited to your style.

11-03-09, 01:45 PM	#4
68goldtop Formerly Omo Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 682	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? thanks a lot guys! makes me feel much better ;) i´ll get in touch with the guy and see what i can find out about the SG. the good thing is, he´s only 40 miles away... thanks again - 68.

11-04-09, 09:58 AM	#5
68goldtop Formerly Omo Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 682	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? i have a related question... seems the sg is in nice shape, except for a bit "funky"-looking headstock-logo. need to see a close-up, yet... it does come with the little tremolo-thing. i LOVE tremolos, but i keep hearing that these particular units were unuseable and have to be taken off in order to be able to even play the guitar. is that true, or would it serve me for some slight bigsby-type warble? thanks again! - 68.

11-04-09, 10:31 AM	#6
jeffc In the Zone/Backstage Pass Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Trois-Rivières Posts: 1,468	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? Reading your post i found obvious that the ES-125 won't stay with you for long. In that regard, the trade witha guitar that might suit you better is inevitable. I would do it. __________________ They all play Les Pauls through Marshalls ...and they are searching for their tone ?

11-04-09, 10:44 AM	#7
bobore Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 72	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? Play it first, and check it over carefully. Neck angle & relief okay, etc? You don't want to get it home, and in your excitement have missed something important. Your es125 sounds sweet and has value, so make sure the SG is free of serious problems.

11-04-09, 12:57 PM	#9
loufed52 Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Island of Long, NY Posts: 1,507	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? All of my SGs have Vibrolas and I've never had a problem with them. However, you can remove the Vibrola on an SG Junior or an SG Special and all that you will have is 3 screw holes. You will do no damage and you can always put it back on. You can then use the bridge as a wraparound tailpiece, but if your bridge is original buy a repro wraparound so you don't damage the original. __________________ Come to the Blues Guitar Forum. http://bluesguitar.forumcircle.com/portal.php If you want to join mention that you are from the LP Forum. Last edited by loufed52 : 11-05-09 at 08:35 AM.

11-05-09, 02:10 AM	#10
68goldtop Formerly Omo Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 682	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? hi guys! thanks again for your thoughts! this will be an in-person deal, so i´m quite confident that i won´t get into something i don´t really want/need. i´ll let you all know how it turns out! good news about the vibrola, too! cheers - 68.

11-05-09, 08:56 PM	#11
Overdriven66 Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: South of Motown Posts: 97	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? I agree that the SG might be more suited to your style. IMO the '68 and up SG's are not as valuable as the earlier batwings but if it is structurally sound, it sounds like a fair deal. Make sure the pickup is original 60's....many are swapped out for those $20 GFS and similar pickups that are all over Ebay. In all my years of owning many, many 60's SG's, there are 'straight ones',and ones that have been 'around the block'. Make sure that the tuners haven't been off/on and all the usual detective work it takes to make sure it is a good one. If you don't plan to use the vibrato, take it off or just use the wrap. The Tone Pros wrap is KILLER and doesn't require alterations to the guitar. With proper setup and a PROPERLY cut nut, I have found the Maestro to be totally useful, but don't expect Strat type expectations out of it. __________________ Custom made 60's T-Bird bridges and pickups.

11-06-09, 02:13 PM	#12
68goldtop Formerly Omo Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 682	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? hi guys! alright. i met the guy and i have the guitar here with me now. we agreed that we´d swap the guitars for a couple of days and see how it works for each of us. he seemed happy with the es125 and i´m happy with the sg junior. it´s been around the block, but it´s not "worn" and it seems mostly original as far as i can tell. it sounds nice, even and resonant unplugged, but it´s late and i havn´t had a chance to really crank it up. the pickup looks old and it reads 7.7 kO. i have a couple of questions regarding the construction - if you´re willing to bear with me... the neck is VERY fat. i´d say it´s close to the current ´57 les paul reissues. still bearable, but i´ll have to get used to it. the headstock has the smaller neck-angle - like my ´68 goldtop - so that seems right for the time, doesn´t it? the serial-# is 906xxx which would make it a ´68 rather than a ´69 - but that´s no big deal (at least i don´t think so...). what puzzles me is, that the neck seems to be made of 3 pieces while the body is rather clearly one piece. also, probably due to the fact that the neck-shape is so "healthy", there´s a small "volute" near the headstock which is rather thin in comparison to the neck-profile. does it all add up? i´ll take a couple of pictures tomorrow and i could mail them to anyone who´d like to share some insight. thanks again! cheers - 68. p.s.: the maestro/vibrola seems fine for now.

11-06-09, 04:27 PM	#13
loufed52 Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Island of Long, NY Posts: 1,507	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? If it's got a 3 piece fat neck and a volute it can't be a '68- it has to be '69 or '70. The 3 piece neck is not an issue as far as I'm concerned- it's more rigid than the 1 piece neck, and they seem to hold tune pretty well. The headstock angle is 14 degrees rather than 17 degrees, as you've already noticed. If the Gibson logo on the headstock has no dot over the i that would seal the '69/70 year. __________________ Come to the Blues Guitar Forum. http://bluesguitar.forumcircle.com/portal.php If you want to join mention that you are from the LP Forum.

11-06-09, 08:52 PM	#15
Overdriven66 Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: South of Motown Posts: 97	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? The value of this guitar goes down as this thread moves forward. The post '67 SG's are not as desireable value wise or quality wise . Good thing you are using the resources here.... this deal is heading south as we gather info on what this SG is really about. The more info the better. __________________ Custom made 60's T-Bird bridges and pickups.

11-07-09, 12:13 AM	#17
Gibsonian Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 215	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? 6-digit serial numbers starting with 9 were used in the early-70's as well. This could be a '70, '71 or '72 (which I believe is the last year for those large-guard SGs.) Is there a "Made in USA" stamp on the back of the peghead?

11-07-09, 07:53 AM	#19
Gibsonian Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 215	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? According to the blue book 906xxx falls in 1968, but yours has a 3-piece neck... Could be a '70 that was made before they started "Made in USA." The pot codes might be the next place to check to date the guitar.

11-07-09, 08:49 AM	#20
Overdriven66 Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: South of Motown Posts: 97	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? 68, I'm probably being too critical of the post 68 SG's versus the earlier ones. Your guitar sounds like a nice straight piece. The headstock angle being shallower, and the big neck are different than the generally more desireable mid-60's SG's. If it all checks out and you are happy with the way it sounds and plays..cool! __________________ Custom made 60's T-Bird bridges and pickups.

11-07-09, 09:18 AM	#21
jeffc In the Zone/Backstage Pass Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Trois-Rivières Posts: 1,468	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? Do you prefer it to your Es-125 ? __________________ They all play Les Pauls through Marshalls ...and they are searching for their tone ?

11-07-09, 06:03 PM	#24
68goldtop Formerly Omo Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 682	Re: Trading a ´67 ES 125 for a ´69 SG Junior? hi guys! thanks again for your feedback! well, here´s the scoop (for now anyway)... i took the sg to our rehearsal-space and gave it a good run down with my amps and effects - as well as a close comparison to my (new-ish) sg standard. the pickup sounds great - maybe even stellar. amazing range of tones available with just the two knobs. the thing is, the guitar just doesn´t play that great... my current standard is more comfortable overall, and while it doesn´t sound AS good, it still sounds pretty darn good in comparison. the junior is nice, but it seems it´s too close a call to get rid of the es125 for it. while the es125 might not suit my every-day needs very well, it could be there when i need/want something completely different... mh, looks like i´ll call the guy tomorrow to get back the es125, but i´ll sleep over it ;) again - thanks a lot for all your help! cheers - 68.