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Strange Bird

j45

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Jun 14, 2002
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9,081
$1500 is still a great deal for that the guitar regardless of what may have gone on in its past. Congrats!
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
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140
$1500 is still a great deal for that the guitar regardless of what may have gone on in its past. Congrats!

Thanks a lot. I thought the same. My heart of hearts would love for this to be one of those one-offs with all this stuff having been done in the factory, but logically I know none of that really matters.

This is likely my best sounding Les Paul and also my least expensive. The funny thing is, in terms of value, I paid inverse amounts.

'78 Wine Red Standard - $1850 in '08
'80 Tobacco Burst Deluxe (dead mint) $1650 in '10
'74 Gold Top - $1500 in '10.

Go figure.

I'm up to 7 Gibsons (8 if you count my '65 Epiphone Olympic, which is just a "back door Gibson"/Melody Maker in disguise). I don't really need / want for anything more.
 

jharrod1

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Jul 24, 2007
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3
My guess is that the inlay is supposed to be half skull/half guitar. It's most clear in the 4th picture down in the original post.
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
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140
Gee, I hope not. ;)

To me it seemed sort of Picasso-esque. I can see the edge of a guitar, but the rest of it is just abstract as hell. Unless somehow, someday, the original owner sees this, I don't think we'll ever know.
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
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140
So... Jay, the owner of Emerald City Guitars here in Seattle, says that the wiring may indeed be original, as might the finish. He looked at the guitar for a minute, I talked to him, and then he picked it up and marveled over it for maybe 10 minutes.

He said they would likely have to dissect it further to be certain, but it's not unlikely.
 

Stevedenver

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Jul 17, 2001
Messages
2,565
well it is unique-
and as said

if it sounds and plays-its great-

congrats there is no question its special and
play it in good health

thanks for the info on the blend-i didnt first catch the width issue-perhaps the neck was shaved ???

anyway its very interesting and nice looking


i think its great you have a guitar that really is unique
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
Steve,

I guess the thing is that all of this is speculative without the guitar in your hands. I'm trying to be objective as possible here using what I observe, not what I wish to be true. That being said, I considered a shave on the neck, but there's no evidence of that either.

A) there appears to be no refinish done, evidenced by black light.
B) there is no taper from the area above the upper bought to the neck indicating shave
C) the "binding" extends up from the 22nd fret to above the 7th fret.

At this point, I agree with you whole heartedly. The guitar is nice and interesting. The reason I'm discussing it is academic at this point. I enjoy this sort of thing quite a bit.

Now, all that being said, let's get to the meaty stuff!

I got to play it cranked loud today finally. I have a '63 Gibson GA-40T "Mariner" 25 watt amp as my main. This guitar sings. It has amazing harmonic undertones. The sustain is amazing. I can honestly say that I hear the difference between an ABR-1 and the later Nashvilles. That's probably the biggest difference.

I'm sure the trans-tenon has a bit to do with the difference, but as somebody said on the MLP forum: "Long tenon? Short tenon? It's all the f*@#$ same when the drummer comes in."
 

j45

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Jun 14, 2002
Messages
9,081
So... Jay, the owner of Emerald City Guitars here in Seattle, says that the wiring may indeed be original, as might the finish. He looked at the guitar for a minute, I talked to him, and then he picked it up and marveled over it for maybe 10 minutes.

He said they would likely have to dissect it further to be certain, but it's not unlikely.

Well, this is how we at the LPF have gotten our rep as a bunch of wise-asses but a vintage guitar store owner with no clue as to what he is seeing is more than par for the course. Just to be clear for sake of the data base and all keeping score, a blacklight is no help whatsoever in determining whether or not a guitar is refinished OR the age of a finish. It will ONLY expose relative differences of exposure to UV that one area of a guitar has received as opposed to another area on that SAME guitar. If a guitar is a total refin, it will indeed blacklight identical to any other original finish with equal exposure to UV....regardless of age.

There are very clear masking marks in the pickup cavities among other places which indicate a second finish applied to the guitar. There is just no other explanation of why the break lines from one finish to another would be there. There appear to be masking marks all over the place....fingerboard, binding, etc.... something you won't find on an original Gibson finish. The control cavity and lack of matching clear coat on the ledges is another story altogether but also another indicator of non-typical Gibson factory original finish regardless of custom order of any era.

Please understand that I'm not trying to cast bad light on this guitar. If it's nice like you say that is ALL that matters and from what you have said I feel like you have found a wonderful musical instrument. I believe the LPF's strongest offering to the internet is an unparalleled database of accurate, reliable information and photos in fine detal of a wide range of specifications for vintage Gibson guitars. We've seen plenty of special orders and factory custom work with a long list of features not typical to production models but until someone can point out documentation or give some kind of explanation for the sub-standard (for Gibson) work it should be considered non-original.
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
This is my formal apology to Zombiewolf: You were right, there is a crooked tuner or two. Sorry for being a douche. D and B are a little off.


I thought I'd have a look to make sure it hadn't been replaced at some point, and that there weren't extra holes.

IMG_3062.jpg


IMG_3054.jpg


Appears not to!
IMG_3055.jpg


IMG_3060.jpg
 

zombiwoof

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Feb 22, 2003
Messages
3,565
This is my formal apology to Zombiewolf: You were right, there is a crooked tuner or two. Sorry for being a douche. D and B are a little off.


I thought I'd have a look to make sure it hadn't been replaced at some point, and that there weren't extra holes.

IMG_3062.jpg


IMG_3054.jpg


Appears not to!
IMG_3055.jpg


IMG_3060.jpg

No problem, I thought it was pretty obvious in the case of the D tuner. My question is, did Grovers come stock on LP's in the era of that guitar (70's, right?)?. I didn't think they came with Grovers till later. Of course, if this was a custom order or something maybe they could have been specified.

Al
 

sangandongo

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Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
No problem, I thought it was pretty obvious in the case of the D tuner. My question is, did Grovers come stock on LP's in the era of that guitar (70's, right?)?. I didn't think they came with Grovers till later. Of course, if this was a custom order or something maybe they could have been specified.

Al

They did not come stock on Deluxes. They did come standard on Customs from '59 on. This guitar, while it is not a Les Paul Custom model, is likely a "custom" order, which is why I think that it has the TRC saying "Custom." The Custom model's TRC said all three words "Les Paul Custom" during this time period.

It also shares the black colored control panel plates of a Custom, where Deluxes and Standards have the brown plates.

LPs were all over the place from 68 to 76, after which they sort of stabilized. 68-69 was really erratic: long tenon, single piece necks transitioning to medium "trans tenon." By 70-71, the necks started moving to three piece mahogany. in 75, the neck went from mahogany to maple and the volute got bigger.

75 also brought in the Nashville bridge, doing away with the ABR-1. That's the single greatest thing to affect tone, in my opinion, seconded by the maple neck.

Anyhow... a lot of people hate Norlins. I find that they're no worse than modern Gibsons. You have gems and you have duds. I lucked out and have 5 gems and one rhinestone. My 60s Gibbos are consistent and nice. I don't own any Gibson younger than 80 though, so I have no experience there.
 

D'Mule

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Apr 5, 2003
Messages
4,621
Please understand that I'm not trying to cast bad light on this guitar. If it's nice like you say that is ALL that matters and from what you have said I feel like you have found a wonderful musical instrument. I believe the LPF's strongest offering to the internet is an unparalleled database of accurate, reliable information and photos in fine detal of a wide range of specifications for vintage Gibson guitars. We've seen plenty of special orders and factory custom work with a long list of features not typical to production models but until someone can point out documentation or give some kind of explanation for the sub-standard (for Gibson) work it should be considered non-original.

What he said.
 

kharrison

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May 18, 2006
Messages
4,225
No problem, I thought it was pretty obvious in the case of the D tuner. My question is, did Grovers come stock on LP's in the era of that guitar (70's, right?)?. I didn't think they came with Grovers till later. Of course, if this was a custom order or something maybe they could have been specified.

Al

Where's the serial number and made in usa....IMHO guitar has been refinned.
 

Humbuck

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Jul 17, 2001
Messages
4,489
Way past that.

Probably because you seem to want to disregard what j45 says about your guitar not being original or a Gibson custom shop piece, even though he has a huge amount of experience with exactly such things.

It's not an original finish. It's not stock. It has been modified at some point, and not by Gibson. It's not a custom order.

Enjoy your guitar.:salude
 

D'Mule

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Probably because you seem to want to disregard what j45 says about your guitar not being original or a Gibson custom shop piece, even though he has a huge amount of experience with exactly such things.

It's not an original finish. It's not stock. It has been modified at some point, and not by Gibson. It's not a custom order.

Enjoy your guitar.:salude

What he said.:spabout
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
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Yep. That's it! I'm not being objective AT ALL. Thanks!

Serial number is there. So is the Made in the USA. If it's been refinished, fine. The # is 5XX887.

133.jpg
 

sangandongo

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Mar 27, 2009
Messages
140
Just went to get a black light. The guitar glows like creamy radiator fluid. Even the top. If it was a refin, it was done quite a while ago. Still, this isn't a fail-safe test, as we should all well know, but it's a decent indicator.

I'm still not completely convinced the top isn't refinished, but the back and sides are most certainly not.

Whatever the case, it plays and sounds so different to my '78 and '80.

Thanks for the mixed bag of responses. Until later.
 

27sauce

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Jul 9, 2007
Messages
4,415
It should sound pretty different from a '78 or '80, it looks cooler too. Not anything towards you, but more so to myself, If that is not refinished I have to reevaluate what I think *I* know about old guitars and finishes...it just does not look like Gibson gold, looks mustardy/pasty yellow.
 
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