what ABR-1 can i use to replace a wrap around bridge/ tailpiece on a 65' SG jr ?

[electricsky]

Originally Posted by Ad_02Std

It's not the length of your posts as such, but using capital letters at the beginning of sentences and being careful with your spaces and punctuation would make them so much easier to read. Just a little friendly advice.

when i see how people usualy write on forums, using tons of abreviations and slang , poor orthograph and grammar , i think the way i write is not that bad (especialy in a foreign language; do you write / speak French as good ? lol ) .
there might not be some capital letters in every begining of a sentence but there is some punctuation.
also, as i read quickly (at least not too slowly) , i have no problem reading long posts and often i feel people lack some precisions in their posts; we're all different, looking for different things ... lol

[electricsky]

would you say a wraparound bridge combo would bring more low end than a regular separate abr-1 and stop tail or is it the same ?

[latestarter]

I would say yes, but it's impossible to actually tell without trying the two elements on the same guitar.

So I'll stick with an anecdotal "yes", but I suspect that's not what you want to hear.

[electricsky]

thanks for your answers.
i just want to hear the truth ! lol
i was hoping some people would have tried / compared both systems on the same guitar.
i never compared , so i don't know .
i just notice this guitar has much low end once plugged but i don't detect that much low end unplugged.
it doesn't seem to sound that much bassy accousticaly, so i was wondering if the wraparound bridge might favor teh transmission of vibrations that result in a more bassy sound once amplified .
it seems teh wraparound bridge / tp combo transmits the low end very well to the guitar but maybe it would be teh same with a separate abr-1 and TP.
at first, i thought this guitar was lacking some high end compared to some more recent SG's (with late 60's p90's inside) i have , with separate abr-1 and TP but i noticed it has much low end (more than i thought) and maybe that 's why i felt it was lacking some high end.
i have iinstalled the pigtail lightweight bridge/ TP (with tonepros locking studs) :
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...nd_Bridge.html

it seems i have a bit more high end but i still have much low end.
i even wonder if there is more low end than before although i'm not sure a lighter wraparound combo might bring more low end than the heavier stock one !
apart from that , this bridge / TP combo is nice and works fine.
i also bought this wraparound bridge / TP combo on stewmac website (it was cheap , maybe 35 $ including the studs !) :
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...nd_Bridge.html
but i haven't tried it yet as it's much heavier and i suspect it might kill some more high end and bring more low end.
it looks like the one used on a well known French guitarist 63' SG junior ( the same for years) : Louis Bertignac

[electricsky]

this is a very nice 65 SG junior, in very good shape (no crack or repair) , with a nice neck profile and a crazy light weight (most of the lightweight guitars i have tried didn't have much low end , some sound really thin ) , so i really would like to get the tone i want from it; the same but with less low end (not so complicated).
i haven't tried with the original maestro yet but i will, i hope the studs of the wraparound bridge / TP combo might bring more low end than the separate setup, so i might get the tone i want if i don't anchor the strings directly on the bridge.
i suspect the studs of the wraparound , favor teh transmission of low end ; compared to the thin inserts of the abr-1 but i might be totaly wrong; just a guess.
i used it with a jtm45 i built (with 66 spec) , with a closed back 212 (with original greenback g12h30 75hz / 102 003 cones) and i had to put the bass on 0 to do not have too much of it when i usualy setup the bass on 1 (in that room) .
not that much of a difference some would say but i still would like to get rid of some of that low end (not modifying the circuit inside) on the guitar.
the caps measure 0,019 in the guitar, the bridge pu measures less than 7,5k , so there nothing here explaining the low end response of the guitar once amplified

[latestarter]

Running it through the Maestro and over the bridge will probably achieve what you are wanting without the whole issue of drilling an old guitar.

For many that whole efficient transfer of vibration/tone via a wrap bridge/tail piece is the attraction of that setup. On the description you give it sounds liek I would like this gat - maybe just sell it to me and buy a boogied one already

[electricsky]

i could sell it to you but NZ is far from where i live ! lol
i went there for 3 months about 10 years ago, to work with a singer (girl) ; very nice country.
quite calm even in Auckland on a saturday night but very beautiful and good food.
yes, maybe installing the maestro will give me what i want; i will try.
sure, when a guitar doesn't have much low end, (like many SG's !) you try to use teh hardware that gives you more of it but when you already have enough, no need to add some ! lol

[electricsky]

I re installed a maestro vibrato on the guitar, using the pigtail light weight wraparound bridge/TP combo i had bought, just as a bridge and i have the feeling the tone is airier with a bit less low end as i suspected.
i have just played the guitar unplugged yet as i can't push my amps now to try the guitar at loud volumes but i will do it on moday (when the neighbours are away ! lol).

[electricsky]

i could plug the guitar in my 66' jtm45 , another jtm45 i built with same OT configuration and a 68' 1987 small box JMP ; jtm45's vol on 8 /jmp on 6 , through original g12h30 75hz 102/3 loaded 412 (no attenuator obviously) and it sounded much better than with the wraparound setup !
the guitar sounds more balanced.
playing a guitar through a pushed non master volume marshall is not the same as getting your overdrive through a pedal or even an amp with attenuator (or simply an amp you don't push ) , it doesn't forgive anything.
so if you have much low end on your guitar, it might sound great throuh a pedal or amp with attenuator but it will sound overbassy through a dimed amp !
for all the guys that have a guitar they like but who are not totaly satisfied with the tone it has, i can only recommand to try with some other hardware as i did cause you can really tune a guitar this way .
I have several guitars i tuned this way (with pu's, bridge and TP 's , key tuners ...) and i'm really satisfied now .
The wraparound bridge/ TP combo was transmitting too much bass to the pu's in my configuration whereas now it's on par with my other guitars.

i noticed my 97' SG special ri custom shop has its bridge pu slightly closer to the bridge, giving it a brighter (in a good way) tone in that pu position whereas my 2004 SG classic has its bridge pu positioned the same way as teh 65' special (i put some late 60's P90's in all my actual Gibson guitars with P90).

[frazettafan]

Interesting stuff, 'sky - sounds like you have some nice amps there!

[electricsky]

Yes, i have many nice vintage amps from the 50's to the early 90's (most are from late 50's to mid 70's) , including many Marshall , Fender ,Hiwatt, Vox , Supro / valco & co and 2 mesa boogie's. With all the original speakers . I also built (and modded some ri's) a few high end repro's (jtm45's, 1959 , tweed bassman 5f6-a and deluxe 5e3 , supro 1624T ... with some NOS and actual parts ) for my recording studio .

[electricsky]

I'm resurecting this topic , as i'm still tweaking this 65 SG special to get the exact tone i look for !
After i have had several guitars, including several of the same type / model ,over a long period of time, obviously i know precisely what i want to hear playing the different type of guitars i know ( les paul , sg , strat , tele , all vintage / vintage style) !
I will answer directly one question i'm sometimes asked ,that is to say why not using a more recent guitar if i plan to tweak it ( to do not devaluate its price if any non reversal mod is done), it's because i prefer vintage ones for the choice of individuality that is proposed !
In a few words, they all were quite different , in the same model, they all had different neck , pu's resistence , weight, whereas actualy they all have the same neck in the same model .
So, i really like this 65 SG, it's not mint but used and has a very nice neck profile that really suits me.
Originaly, it was stringed using the wrap around bridge / TP but i really hated it , at least on this guitar !
It was taking much high end away !
Since i have been searching for many infos about bridges, tail pieces and their mass / weight ...
Here's an interesting article about Violins but that should apply to guitars as well :
http://follandviolins.com/articles/tailpiece/

I also found this interesting article about string tension but i'm wondering if he's right on one point :
http://www.frudua.com/guitar_strings_tension.htm

The fact more mass added near the bridge seems to dampen high frequencies was verified when i replaced the stock compensated bar / bridge with a Wrap around alluminium Pigtail one ; the tone became much airier and brighter , with less low end / low mids.
Too much this time a contrario !
Then i choose to put the stock Gibson short Maestro and keep the pigTail wraparound as a simple bridge but it was still too bright, with no body to the tone (even more on solo notes ).
Then i put back the stock heavy weight compensated wraparound bar / bridge , using it a a simple bridge , keeping the short Gibson vibrola as stop tail and the tone became less bright, with more low end low mids ; much better in two words !
I don't like the wraparound bar / bridge and i'm feeling i will have hard time to tune it as there are no moving sadles and i like a good intonation everywhere on the fretboard ( as much as possible ).

So i wonder if there are some bridges, ( with same type of weight as the stock compensated bar / bridge) i could install instead of the wraparound bar / bridge ( using its bushings with its posts or some other posts) , without having to remove the wraparound bar/ bridge bushings ( similar to the one that exists to replace a nashville with an ABR-1 but to replace a wraparound bar / bridge instead ) but using them to screw the bridge's posts in the body and that i can use with a stop tail ?

My other solution i have been thinking about for a year now, is to remove the bar bridge bushings , fill them properly, then install an ABR-1 and a stop tail instead of teh Gibson Vibrola ( cause teh vibrola won't dampen the tone enough unlike the compensated bar / bridge that is actualy in ) .

The thing is that an ABR-1 is lighter i guess, than the stock wraparound bar / bridge and if i put a stop tail (say i use an heavy weight one) , it will be farther from the bridge, moving the mass from the bridge to the stop tail, so i wonder if i will get the exact same tone or if i will really hear a difference ?

I gess the high end might not be dampen exactly the same way and it will add a little low mids low end as well if i put a heavy weight one .
I could bare to get a bit more body to the tone but i would like to keep the raw mids i have now and not get closer to what i had at first with the wraparound ( i doubt i will ) nor enhance them as it might occure with a light weight TP !

It's a guitar i like and if i do so, i plan to keep it a life time ( as far as possible), so it will be a guitar i wioll play refgularly.
i hate to keep guitars i don't play and as it was setup until recently, i was not using it !
It sounds better now but the intonation isn't good and i know i won't play a guitar with bad intonation .
I love 65' SG 's necks among some other years , i also have a 65' SG standard ( factory second i suppose, with a little repair on the top under a knob to hide a defect) but it's quite stiff to play due to the Gibson vibrola and the shallow neck angle ( so there is little string angle and string length between bridge and TP ,whereas with a stop tail , i should be able to reduce the string tension that is stiff actualy as well as getting more string angle at the bridge.

[electricsky]

One thing i was surprised to read in the article i attached teh link to in teh post above, was that it is said that more string angle at the bridge would give more string tension ( it also depends on the string length between the bridge and stop tail ) but i have the feeling it's the contrario !

When you put some angle on a rope, isn't it easier to pull as it demultiplicates the forces , so i would tend to think it's the same with guitar strings but reading the article i linked above, it's doesn't seem so !

On the standard, the neck angle beeing shallow, there is not much string angle at the bridge ( the bridge can be set low , so it's not a problem for the action height) , so the strings don't stand off the Gibson vibrola directly as they come off the anchor point but they lie a bit on teh side of teh vibrola bar , so it makes even less string length betwenn bridge and stop tail ( knowing teh bridge isn't close to teh bridge pu, it reduces it even more !) .
So all that seemps to contribute to a stiffer string tension and less resonance of the strings (and stiffer feeling when playing) ./
I noticed that with the Gibson long vibrola lyre and there is only one SG i have where i feel it really fits it , otherwise i do,'t like it for playability (or tone either !) .
For a guitar that lacks high end and needs some sort of zingy high end (with slight wolf tones ), why not but for a guitar that is already correctly balanced, i think it adds some zingy trebly frequencies that don't really enhance the tone on these other guitars !

I also tried a trapeze tail piece on a 68 ES-335, but i don't like these either ( the trapeze; too " airy" / metallic as well ) !

[electricsky]

My main question is :
So i wonder if there are some bridges, ( with same type of weight as the stock compensated bar / bridge, if possible ...) i could install instead of the wraparound bar / bridge ( using its bushings with its posts or some other posts) , without having to remove the wraparound bar/ bridge bushings ( similar to the one that exists to replace a nashville with an ABR-1 but to replace a wraparound bar / bridge instead ) but using them to screw the bridge's posts in the body and that i can use with a stop tail ( with the string angle done by the stop tail from the bridge saddles ,they mustn't be in contact with the back of the bridge) ?

[DoubleBoogie]

Go here and scroll down and check out the Pigtail intonatable wrap around bridge replacement. Maybe this is what you are looking for??? I would use this instead of modding the guitar body in any way. The quality of Pigtail products is outstanding. I assume the company is still in business since Steve passed.

http://www.pigtailmusic.com/Products.php

[electricsky]

thanks for the answer.
i have one already but the strings would touch the back of the bridge if mounted with a stop tail , due to the break angle .
I have been searching but i see no other sdolution than filling the bushings and install an ABR-1 but i will ask my luthier.

[tooold]

Trying to force a guitar to give you the tones you want, instead of exploring what it does to find out if you *like* what it does - and then either enjoying it or selling it - is ass-backward.

You're convinced you know what the solution is, so please, just go ahead and do it. Get it over with and stop making us all cringe.

C'est déprimant.

[electricsky]

I don't see any aggressivity in my posts and i suppose i'm not the only person who wants to get exactly the tone he has in head , with a guitar he loves, so what 's the problem with you ?
You don't like my topic and have nothing to say about that, no problem but then , please, look elswhere and let me live my life peacefully !
I respect you , please respect me !
Thanks !

Here in france it's very fifficult to find some of these 60's guitars !
There are very fews and most of them are the rejects from USA !
Many ( if not most ) are bad sounding ones, or broken ones and whenever they have one they feel they can get money from , then they push the price skyrocket
(they even admit it , when you talk about it with the guys working in the shops when you go and have a drink with them after work ) ...
but sometimes there is a nice guitar that can be found for a correct price ( for France).
I have the luck to be friend with the guy who owns the best and oldest vintage guitar shop in Paris but even with such relation / friend, it's still difficult to find a good one
( and i know Pigalles' guitar shops , and most of the people there as i worked there for a year or two about 12 years ago ...)
So if i wait to find exactly the guitar i look for, i will NEVER find it here; it's so obvious !
And as i prefer to try the guitar first , especialy when we begin to pay guitars in this price range !
I see you are French as well, so you should know all that very well ( Maybe i even know you on top of that ! lol) !

[electricsky]

I had the luck to find a very nice and good sounding 65 SG Junior with small guard ( 14° headstock angle) , that sounds quite good, with a compensated bridge bar but it's a light weight one , unlike on my 65 SG special where it's a heavy weight one who dampens the sound !
I will keep this one stock or maybe just put a light weight compensated bar bridge with possibility to setup the intonation on the saddles but it won't make a definitive mod to the guitar .
I like it this way but intonation is not the best to my taste with these bar / bridge .
It's up to everybody to choose what he likes as long as he dosn't impose it to the rest of the world !
It's called Freedom ...

I still haven't modified the 65 SG special, i took it to the best electric guitar luthier in Paris (where i bring all my guitars : DNG) to see with them what are the solutions i have.
I don't like the idea to mod a guitar but as i will keep it for a long time (maybe a life time, ) i prefer to play it than to have it and not play it.
It's been a year i bought this sg special and haven't seen another one i could have bought since that would be better and for a correct price ( although i admit i have not been looking for one as i already have one !)
I have two 59 les paul ri ( 96 & 97) , both had the heavy weight stop tail stock, i kept one stock and put a lightweight one on the other and it gave me the tone i looked for with the right pu's !
Many very good musicians are tuning their guitars with different hardware biut obviously, the guitars have reached such a ridiculous price now that you don't even dare looking at some beeing afraid they get used just looking at them ! lol
How many 335's , 345's or SG's were modified with stop tail , among others ...
Or The Les paul 52 conversions ...

[latestarter]

Originally Posted by electricsky

I

So i wonder if there are some bridges, ( with same type of weight as the stock compensated bar / bridge) i could install instead of the wraparound bar / bridge ( using its bushings with its posts or some other posts) , without having to remove the wraparound bar/ bridge bushings ( similar to the one that exists to replace a nashville with an ABR-1 but to replace a wraparound bar / bridge instead ) but using them to screw the bridge's posts in the body and that i can use with a stop tail ?

.

??

[electricsky]

Did it taste good ? lol

I'm speaking about bridge with possibility to setup saddles position, that i can instal in the actual bar / bridge bushings , that could be used with a stop tail, without the strings resting on its back with the TP string angle there would be then .

[latestarter]

Lightning Bar bridge? Bigsby alloy bridge ?

[electricsky]

I saw these 3 at Stewmac :


http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...l?tab=Pictures

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...l?tab=Pictures

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...l?tab=Pictures

[Gold Tone]

Originally Posted by electricsky

i feel they eat some high end and sustain and give a very stiff feeling

I found exactly the opposite on my Historic R4 and my vintage '57 Junior

[tooold]

Originally Posted by Gold Tone

I found exactly the opposite on my Historic R4 and my vintage '57 Junior

Very little in this thread bears any resemblance to what most people have experienced...

[electricsky]

To everybody his own experience ! lol
I can tell you the difference when i mount the string wrapped around on the stock heavy weight bar /bridge on this 65 SG special is important, compared to when i anchor them on the short gibson vibrola and use the bar/ bridge as a simple bridge !
There is a loss of high end that is important as well as less sustain on some strings !
When i replaced this heavy weight stock bar / bridge with a pigtail wrapparound bridge with saddles
( http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...nd_Bridge.html)
and wrapped the strings around it, i gained some high end compared to when the strings were wrapped around the heavy weight bar/ bridge !
The tone was much more zingy , with more high end, as the difference you can hear between a light weight and an heavy weight TP but it was too bright !

Add some weight in the bridge area and it will dampen the tone, it's some physical here , no phantasms !
Just read all the serious articles about that and you 'll see !

Here's an article about TP's and bridges on violins , read the end of the article :
http://follandviolins.com/articles/tailpiece/

You can think the same way on a guitar , the result will be similar .

Now, i agree that on some guitars, , the wrapped around bar / bridge seem to sound much better than on some others !
As i wrote above, i found recently a 65' SG junior with small guard and early 60's style neck joint ( 14° headstock angle) ,same as the special but Jr model (except one has heavy weight bar/ bridge and the other has a light weight one, apart from the extra pu ) that has a stock light weight bar / bridge and that sounds very very good this way !
As soon as i took the guitar in my hand, i knew i would buy it !
So it really depends from guitar to guitar as usual !
Put a heavy or light weight TP on a guitar it will sound bad, put it on another guitar and it will sound great !
If the combo bar / bridge was really better than an ABR-1 + TP, then i guess Gibson would have used it on all his premium guitars (wasn't it an ABR-1 + TP on Les Paul Std and Custom in the mid to late 50's ?) and left the ABR-1 + TP for lower grade instruments but that's not what happened although i admit that everybody has the freedom to prefer the setup he favours , isn't it ? lol

[electricsky]

Originally Posted by tooold

Very little in this thread bears any resemblance to what most people have experienced...

Try before saying i'm wrong, you'll be surprised ...

[Robin B]

I think you have many options to explore before you have to take a drill to your vintage SG the only thing is its going to take money and trial and error.I personally wold try one of the intonatable wraparounds and anchor the strings on the maestro and try a pair of Tone pros locking studs to hold everything tight.I also liked retrofitting the doubleneck style tailpiece idea

[frazettafan]

Just play the Junior already. It's a better guitar than a Special anyway.