Holly headstock

Tonesnob · 08-21-01, 12:59 PM

Yo!

Dumb question... what the hell are you guys talking about when you bring up "Holly" headstock veneer? It's the "holly" that's throwing me off...

Ed Rafalko · 08-21-01, 01:12 PM

Under the black lacquer, if you look at the side of the headstock, you'll see a thin strip of wood that's a different color than the mahogany. It varies in thickness, but it's usually a 32nd or 3/64ths thick. This veneer is put on the headstock face so the black lacquer is easier to finish- mahogany would require a lot of pore filling and such. It also helps locate the inlay.
On modern production models since the early '70s, the headstock veneer is actually a piece of thin cardboard reinforced with plastic. On the original models and the reissue, it's holly. I HAVE, however, seen early reissues that were certainly maple under the black.

Tonesnob · 08-21-01, 01:26 PM

Interesting... thanks Ed

What do you mean by "...helps locate the inlay"?

When does the "Gibson" & L. Paul logo get applied/silkscreened?

I think all of this stuff is really interesting! This forums' cool.

Ed Rafalko · 08-21-01, 01:31 PM

They cut a hole that the inlay fits into in teh holly headstock veneer- it's ot a perfect outline, but the logo fits perfectly edge-wise, and the lean of the angle is set by this outline. The extra space if filled by epoxy, then painted over. Once the paint is dry, they shoot a couplew coats fo clear on it, and after that's been buffed, they silkscreen or dry-transfer the signature. No clear coat over the gold, as it would darken and be harder to see.
That's what the forum is for, after all- to share this sort of info.

MikeSlub · 08-21-01, 01:57 PM

Like Ed said, we saw them doing the silkscreens of "Les Paul Model" on the Historics at the Custom Shop in the final assembly area.

John Catto · 08-21-01, 03:26 PM

These vary quite a bit in thickness. On the 50's guitars it's paper thin, a real veneer only there to give an easily finished surface and only visible where there's finish damge. On the Historics it can be much thicker, on one historic Goldtop I saw recently it was MUCH thicker and scraped to give a light accent line. It looked kinda cool but nothing like the old ones. I'd love to know what made them choose Holly, it's the weirdest wood to use for this job being pale and needing to be painted.

Sam Blob · 08-21-01, 03:59 PM

Would ebony have worked?

Ed Rafalko · 08-21-01, 04:19 PM

Holly worked because:
A) it was available
B) It was Cheap
C) It took a finish really well
I've seen originals with somewhat thick veneers, but none so thick as the ones they're putting on the Historics.
Ebony would have been prohibitively expensive, because the wood is expensive, the wood is VERY hard on tools, and it's hard to tool- it's brittle and if you shave it too thin it'll crack if you look at it wrong.

Des Howl · 08-21-01, 04:27 PM

Maybe Holly was used for its stability as a veneer on mahogany (i.e. same expansion characteristics?)

My LP is completely "Un-Holly," they just painted it. I don't think it would make any difference to the sound, in the way alder-laminated poplar Strat bodies are affected.

Ed Rafalko · 08-21-01, 04:34 PM

Which Les paul do you have, Des? I don't remember a Les Paul Standard or above that didn't have some sort of veneer. Even the Studios had it, I think.
Holly moves like crazy- it's hard to stabilize and takes a long time to dry- it's a member of the yew family, i think, so it's really springy and weak. Mahogany doesn't move a lot compared to holly.

Tonefiend · 08-21-01, 06:18 PM

Holly sounds alot better than "Butternut" does. Who knows what they used or really use, but the truth of the matter it was economics. The Butternut or Holly they used was probably the cheapest, easiest to slice, and apply.
Maple is more brittle, so it doesn't keep or work as well, and there is more potential for waste.
They wanted a smooth looking black lacquer surface where the grain won't sink in like it does mahogany. Imagine silkscreening the Les Paul logo over sunken grain. :dead:

John Catto · 08-21-01, 07:33 PM

Although they did it on Juniors which have nothing at all except paint. The "super accurate" way they did the inlays it wouldn't have mattered much anyway.

Stu · 08-22-01, 02:03 PM

Stupid question, maybe, but I'm not that well versed in guitar construction, or woodworking for that matter - how did they prepare & apply the holly veneer? I shudder to think about trying to plane a 1/32" thick veneer and glue it on...

Ed Rafalko · 08-22-01, 02:11 PM

They probably have a veneer cutter, or if they don't they probably buy it pre-sliced.

Tonefiend · 08-22-01, 02:12 PM

Veneers are cut on a veneer slicing machine. It is a huge industrial type thing. I am not sure exactly how it works but they use steam or a chemical solution to keep the wood from cracking, and warping I think.
They were applied with hide glue. I think they used a caul probably out of rubber. hats how I do it, or possibly a vacuum press.

Stu · 08-22-01, 02:31 PM

Thanks Ed & Ian, that makes sense. I didn't think there could be much hand prep involved.

Tonefiend · 08-23-01, 12:00 AM

Yeah Ed, theres no way there going to slice veneers, especially when a cheap wood like that is nickels and dimes per square foot. I would almost guarantee they dont have a slicer. Its very specialized operation. I don't know much other than that about it.
When you think of the old Gibson factory, you need to think of how they did things back then, and economics. It wa a business there for profit.
So when you try to figure out why or how, assume it was to make production easier and cheaper while maintaing a quality instrument.

Tonesnob · 08-23-01, 01:19 PM

Too cool y'all... thanks for the help.

canukk · 08-27-01, 07:52 AM

Wow, the combined knowledge of this forum is
overwhelming.I posted a similar question in the
repair forum and between these two postings I
have all of my questions answered. I believe
that holly was picked with finish product in
mind, a couple of shots of laquer and she is as
smooth as....., on the other end....fourteen coats on the mahogony and you are just getting started.

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08-21-01, 12:59 PM	#1
Tonesnob Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: STL Posts: 1,207	Holly headstock Yo! Dumb question... what the hell are you guys talking about when you bring up "Holly" headstock veneer? It's the "holly" that's throwing me off... __________________ ~Gregory Last edited by Tonesnob : 08-21-01 at 01:01 PM.

08-21-01, 01:26 PM	#3
Tonesnob Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: STL Posts: 1,207	Interesting... thanks Ed What do you mean by "...helps locate the inlay"? When does the "Gibson" & L. Paul logo get applied/silkscreened? I think all of this stuff is really interesting! This forums' cool. __________________ ~Gregory

08-21-01, 01:57 PM	#5
MikeSlub Admin/Burst Advisory In the Zone Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: America the Beautiful Posts: 11,169	Like Ed said, we saw them doing the silkscreens of "Les Paul Model" on the Historics at the Custom Shop in the final assembly area. __________________ * "Gibson guitars are like potato chips - you can't have just one!" * "So many Gibsons to love, so little time..."

08-21-01, 03:59 PM	#7
Sam Blob Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Land of Wood and Water Shortage Posts: 500	Would ebony have worked? __________________ With patience and determination, one day, my playing will not suck.

08-21-01, 01:12 PM	#2
Ed Rafalko Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,283	Under the black lacquer, if you look at the side of the headstock, you'll see a thin strip of wood that's a different color than the mahogany. It varies in thickness, but it's usually a 32nd or 3/64ths thick. This veneer is put on the headstock face so the black lacquer is easier to finish- mahogany would require a lot of pore filling and such. It also helps locate the inlay. On modern production models since the early '70s, the headstock veneer is actually a piece of thin cardboard reinforced with plastic. On the original models and the reissue, it's holly. I HAVE, however, seen early reissues that were certainly maple under the black.

08-21-01, 01:31 PM	#4
Ed Rafalko Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,283	They cut a hole that the inlay fits into in teh holly headstock veneer- it's ot a perfect outline, but the logo fits perfectly edge-wise, and the lean of the angle is set by this outline. The extra space if filled by epoxy, then painted over. Once the paint is dry, they shoot a couplew coats fo clear on it, and after that's been buffed, they silkscreen or dry-transfer the signature. No clear coat over the gold, as it would darken and be harder to see. That's what the forum is for, after all- to share this sort of info.

08-21-01, 03:26 PM	#6
John Catto Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Londinium, UK Posts: 3,607	These vary quite a bit in thickness. On the 50's guitars it's paper thin, a real veneer only there to give an easily finished surface and only visible where there's finish damge. On the Historics it can be much thicker, on one historic Goldtop I saw recently it was MUCH thicker and scraped to give a light accent line. It looked kinda cool but nothing like the old ones. I'd love to know what made them choose Holly, it's the weirdest wood to use for this job being pale and needing to be painted.

08-21-01, 04:19 PM	#8
Ed Rafalko Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,283	Holly worked because: A) it was available B) It was Cheap C) It took a finish really well I've seen originals with somewhat thick veneers, but none so thick as the ones they're putting on the Historics. Ebony would have been prohibitively expensive, because the wood is expensive, the wood is VERY hard on tools, and it's hard to tool- it's brittle and if you shave it too thin it'll crack if you look at it wrong.

08-21-01, 04:27 PM	#9
Des Howl Les Paul Forum Member Classic Club Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Over The Hills And Far Awry Posts: 800	Maybe Holly was used for its stability as a veneer on mahogany (i.e. same expansion characteristics?) My LP is completely "Un-Holly," they just painted it. I don't think it would make any difference to the sound, in the way alder-laminated poplar Strat bodies are affected. __________________ Like the avatar? My guitar, at night.

08-21-01, 04:34 PM	#10
Ed Rafalko Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,283	Which Les paul do you have, Des? I don't remember a Les Paul Standard or above that didn't have some sort of veneer. Even the Studios had it, I think. Holly moves like crazy- it's hard to stabilize and takes a long time to dry- it's a member of the yew family, i think, so it's really springy and weak. Mahogany doesn't move a lot compared to holly.

08-21-01, 06:18 PM	#11
Tonefiend Fiendish One Forum Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: 32deg. 56'20.73N 117deg. 51.27w Posts: 7,900	Holly sounds alot better than "Butternut" does. Who knows what they used or really use, but the truth of the matter it was economics. The Butternut or Holly they used was probably the cheapest, easiest to slice, and apply. Maple is more brittle, so it doesn't keep or work as well, and there is more potential for waste. They wanted a smooth looking black lacquer surface where the grain won't sink in like it does mahogany. Imagine silkscreening the Les Paul logo over sunken grain. :dead: __________________ "Rock and F'in Roll" -Slash- "You know what's wrong with music these days? Nobody chokes to death on their own vomit anymore!" Last edited by Tonefiend : 08-21-01 at 06:20 PM.

08-21-01, 07:33 PM	#12
John Catto Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Londinium, UK Posts: 3,607	Imagine silkscreening the Les Paul logo over sunken grain. Although they did it on Juniors which have nothing at all except paint. The "super accurate" way they did the inlays it wouldn't have mattered much anyway.

08-22-01, 02:03 PM	#13
Stu Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 178	Stupid question, maybe, but I'm not that well versed in guitar construction, or woodworking for that matter - how did they prepare & apply the holly veneer? I shudder to think about trying to plane a 1/32" thick veneer and glue it on...

08-22-01, 02:11 PM	#14
Ed Rafalko Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 6,283	They probably have a veneer cutter, or if they don't they probably buy it pre-sliced.

08-22-01, 02:12 PM	#15
Tonefiend Fiendish One Forum Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: 32deg. 56'20.73N 117deg. 51.27w Posts: 7,900	Veneers are cut on a veneer slicing machine. It is a huge industrial type thing. I am not sure exactly how it works but they use steam or a chemical solution to keep the wood from cracking, and warping I think. They were applied with hide glue. I think they used a caul probably out of rubber. hats how I do it, or possibly a vacuum press. __________________ "Rock and F'in Roll" -Slash- "You know what's wrong with music these days? Nobody chokes to death on their own vomit anymore!"

08-22-01, 02:31 PM	#16
Stu Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 178	Thanks Ed & Ian, that makes sense. I didn't think there could be much hand prep involved.

08-23-01, 12:00 AM	#17
Tonefiend Fiendish One Forum Moderator Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: 32deg. 56'20.73N 117deg. 51.27w Posts: 7,900	Yeah Ed, theres no way there going to slice veneers, especially when a cheap wood like that is nickels and dimes per square foot. I would almost guarantee they dont have a slicer. Its very specialized operation. I don't know much other than that about it. When you think of the old Gibson factory, you need to think of how they did things back then, and economics. It wa a business there for profit. So when you try to figure out why or how, assume it was to make production easier and cheaper while maintaing a quality instrument. __________________ "Rock and F'in Roll" -Slash- "You know what's wrong with music these days? Nobody chokes to death on their own vomit anymore!"

08-23-01, 01:19 PM	#18
Tonesnob Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: STL Posts: 1,207	Too cool y'all... thanks for the help. __________________ ~Gregory

08-27-01, 07:52 AM	#19
canukk Les Paul Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Saskatchewan. Posts: 181	Wow, the combined knowledge of this forum is overwhelming.I posted a similar question in the repair forum and between these two postings I have all of my questions answered. I believe that holly was picked with finish product in mind, a couple of shots of laquer and she is as smooth as....., on the other end....fourteen coats on the mahogony and you are just getting started.