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Tweed Harvard: A Princeton alternative?

fakejake

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,274
Hi all,

A question for those knowledgeable in small Fender amps:
I currently use a non-reverb Princeton in my jazz combo.
It is perfect for small gigs with trumpet, double bass and a small drumkit.

While I really like the clean blackface sound, I would like to add a tweed amp to my palette of sounds, with a bit more compression, touch sensitivity and veeeery (!) slight distortion. Think early Blue Note records.
I know these used either a Deluxe or a similar Ampeg, but I would prefer a 10'' combo. I prefer the sound of 10'' speakers, they're easier to transport, and not as loud when used at home for practicing.

I'm currently considering a tweed Harvard, but I wonder if that would sound too similar to my non reverb Princeton.
Has anyone experience with both amps?

Also how does the tweed Princeton compare? I assume is probably too low powered for clean headroom at a jazz gig...

Btw, I'm not looking to buy vintage but have the amp made, so it is difficult for me to try before buying.

Any recommendations highly appreciated!
Cheers
 

sonar

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2003
Messages
3,589
Steve Cropper extensively used a Harvard on all those old Stax recordings. The Harvard will probably have a little softer attack than your Princeton and be a little quicker to overdrive.
 

fakejake

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Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,274
Thanks Sonar. Yeah I've read that about Steve Cropper.
The Princeton is currently my only amp, so if I buy another one it should be sufficiently different. Your response sounds like the two might be too similar...

Has anyone ever tried to put a Deluxe into a Harvard-sized cabinet with a 10'' speaker? If the circuit fits, it might be just whatt I'm looking for. Especially if I would add switches for both negative feedback and a SS rectifier, so I could increase the headroom when needed...?

Happy to hear any more feedback, cheers!
 

The Real MC

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Joined
Dec 13, 2007
Messages
742
I own a tweed Harvard. If you dial it right it is a nice touch sensitive amp. Three big differences: blackface Princeton is a class A amp with long-tailed pair PI, and solid state rectifier. Tweed Harvard is class AB with cathodyne PI, and tube rectifier. The class AB gives more headroom, the cathodyne PI distorts a little more than the LTP, and tube rectifier lends to the compression effect. Tweed Princeton is a different sound altogether, probably not the dynamic range you want for jazz. My Harvard was missing the original Jensen speaker, but the Weber alnico 20w speaker sounds great. I tried the Harvard through my vintage Celestion alnico G12 speaker and that was a sweet combination, transitions nicely between clean and dirty just by touch.

Probably the only caution about a Harvard is the preamp tube is a single triode 6AT6 which is one-half of a dual triode 12AY7 and no longer made. However the next step up would be the Vibrolux which is the exact same amp with tremolo, and uses the 12AY7 in place of the 6AT6. I played a tweed Vibrolux and it sounds identical to my Harvard. Either would be a good choice for jazz, especially if you put a 5751 tube in the phase inverter.
 
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RJLII

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Jul 1, 2009
Messages
352
Check out a Victoria Ivy League in the 12" format. It's very versatile and has a warm, rich tone. The three inputs allow you to dial in the front end in response to varied pickup outputs and the tone control is very responsive The 6AT6 is nothing to worry about. There are plenty of NOS tubes out there. I got a couple spares when I bought my Ivy League. They last forever so I'll likely not have to use them.
 
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B Ingram

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Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
730
... blackface Princeton is a class A amp with long-tailed pair PI, and solid state rectifier. ...

You're thinking of some amp other than a blackface Princeton.

... Probably the only caution about a Harvard is the preamp tube is a single triode 6AT6 which is one-half of a dual triode 12AY7 and no longer made. ...

Have no fear!! Plenty of vendors will sell you NOS 6AT6 (or the half-12AX7, 6AV6) all day long for $3-4.

I probably have more-than-a-lifetime supply of both types, given I only have one amp that uses them.
 

fakejake

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
1,274
Cool, thanks for all the responses guys! I'll be looking out for those Gibson GA18Ts!

So it seems, in theory the major differences between the BF Princeton and Tweed Harward would be:
Rectifier, preamp tube, tonestack, OT, stock speaker.

But shouldn't the tube rectifier in the Princeton actually cause more compression than the non-tube rectifier in the Harvard?

Also, I'd really appreciate any comments on my idea of a Deluxe in a smaller cabinett with a 10'' speaker. In combination with the typical 'headroom mods' this might give me what I'm looking for.

Cheers!
 

Wally

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Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
3,535
I own a tweed Harvard. If you dial it right it is a nice touch sensitive amp. Three big differences: blackface Princeton is a class A amp with long-tailed pair PI, and solid state rectifier. Tweed Harvard is class AB with cathodyne PI, and tube rectifier. The class AB gives more headroom, the cathodyne PI distorts a little more than the LTP, and tube rectifier lends to the compression effect. Tweed Princeton is a different sound altogether, probably not the dynamic range you want for jazz. My Harvard was missing the original Jensen speaker, but the Weber alnico 20w speaker sounds great. I tried the Harvard through my vintage Celestion alnico G12 speaker and that was a sweet combination, transitions nicely between clean and dirty just by touch.

Probably the only caution about a Harvard is the preamp tube is a single triode 6AT6 which is one-half of a dual triode 12AY7 and no longer made. However the next step up would be the Vibrolux which is the exact same amp with tremolo, and uses the 12AY7 in place of the 6AT6. I played a tweed Vibrolux and it sounds identical to my Harvard. Either would be a good choice for jazz, especially if you put a 5751 tube in the phase inverter.

The BF/SF Princeton/Princeton Reverb amp is NOT a Class A amp. It also does NOT have a longtail pair phase inverter. The BF/SF Princeton/Princeton Reverbs are a direct link through the 6G2 Princeton to the tweed era....cathodyne phase inverter with fixed bias for an AB push/pull output section. The tweed Harvard and the 5F11 Vibrolux share these traits with the later Princetons. (;^)
Fwiw, the Rivera Super champ continues this line since it is essentially a hot-rodded BF/Sf Princeton REverb without the trem function.
 

Big Al

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Apr 24, 2002
Messages
14,537
The BF/SF Princeton/Princeton Reverb amp is NOT a Class A amp. It also does NOT have a longtail pair phase inverter. The BF/SF Princeton/Princeton Reverbs are a direct link through the 6G2 Princeton to the tweed era....cathodyne phase inverter with fixed bias for an AB push/pull output section. The tweed Harvard and the 5F11 Vibrolux share these traits with the later Princetons. (;^)
Fwiw, the Rivera Super champ continues this line since it is essentially a hot-rodded BF/Sf Princeton REverb without the trem function.

Yep, a tweed Princeton is a true Class A single ended amp. Like a tweed Champ with a tone control and a bigger speaker. The tweed Harvard and Vibrolux have nothing in common tonaly with BF/SF Princetons and even less with Princeton Reverbs. Regardless what spec they may share, it is wrong to infer a performance/tonal similarity. I have often found it quite amazing how amps can have so much in common, yet feel and sound so different. Like High Power Tweed Twins and BF/SF Twin Reverbs.
 
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