For those of us who have never played a 58-60 Vintage Sunburst

I just picked up an amazing Les Paul 1958, 3 hum bucker pickup Black Beauty Custom guitar and love it.

It sounds great and plays and feels wonderful!

For a '58, the neck does not seem too chunky and the sustain is really fabulous.

I would like to buy a 59 Sunburst and will have the honor to play two of them that are potentially for sale soon.

In reading as much as I can get my hands on (books on vintage bursts) I have seen players and collectors state that most 59's play and sound great but there are a couple of bad ones out there.

One or two people in the books I have read thought the percentage was higher than one or two, but the general consensus was it was only a handful. One or two people may have thought the percentage was higher.

One person mentioned a 59 played awful and then stated that the guitar was back to the way it should be once one of the following was done (I don't recall which one, either worked on, repaired, or set up).

Should the two 59's I look at and play be similar in sound and feel to my '58 Custom? I realize that the necks come in different shapes and thicknesses but how do you or I define what is a great "feeling" guitar?

I believe the Sunbursts might sound a little brighter?

I am hoping the contributors here at lespaulforum.com can share their expertise on this matter. The last thing I want to do is spend a fortune on a guitar that is not a great playing guitar.

I should mention I am an OK player but mostly a collector. I rarely play out, so it would be for home use and I should also mention that I am pretty easy-going with diferent neck sizes. With a little playing time, it seems I can get used to and enjoy playing almost any neck.

Thanks for any guidance you can give.

Hi,

Cool to see another long islander on the forum. Good luck on your quest. Have you played many historics? A great burst should sound like your favorite historic but with that extra something intangible that will drive you wild. It will feel more broken in. The neck will lack the shoulders sometime found on historics that make them feel chunky. If you do hit upon a bad burst it will likely sound worse than the historics you played. Make sure you test drive it acoustic, clean, high gain, and low gain.

Hey, if the Big Dogs jump in on this, I would also like to ask ;

I know you guys just sell/trade a tone turd, but would it really devalue it if you enhanced it and kept the original parts ? :hmm

You should fly to Dallas this weekend for the guitar show.
You can check out several Bursts there.
What you gain in knowledge on this very subject will be worth the expense. :ganz

Here's a Custom and Standard comparison I made. '58 BB and '60 Burst. I believe the order was Burst, Custom, Custom, Burst.

And another.

janalex said:

Hi,

Cool to see another long islander on the forum. Good luck on your quest. Have you played many historics? A great burst should sound like your favorite historic but with that extra something intangible that will drive you wild. It will feel more broken in. The neck will lack the shoulders sometime found on historics that make them feel chunky. If you do hit upon a bad burst it will likely sound worse than the historics you played. Make sure you test drive it acoustic, clean, high gain, and low gain.

Click to expand...

At the suggestion of some forum members here I went to my semi-local Guitar store (the well-known Music zoo) and evaluated three historics. One was brand new, the other two used and I belive less historically accurate than the new model.

Without any experience of what a 59 or 60 was supposed to sound like, I chose the brand new Reissue vos 2014 model because many said it was a closer reissue than older Gibson reissues.

Of the three I played, it felt the best, but it had a little mellower tone. I liked the mellower tone as it allowed me to play softer and achieve a better balanced sound, but I was not sure why it sounded less "dirty" than the older 59 and 60 reissues. The salesman told me all three sounded good, but did not say which sounded more authentic.

For the money I may spend, I hope the '59 does feel better than 2014 version. I believe my two vintage customs from the 50's feel better than the 2014 reissue. I think the comment about a vintage guitar improving with a worn in feeling is a very good analogy.

The best sounding LP I have, is either an '81 custom that plays and sounds amazing with it's original pickups or the new 56 custom - both are remarkable.

JJ Blair said:

And another.

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JJ Thank you so much for providing the two videos. I am sure when I watch them this evening they will be a big help! Thanks again!

TW59 said:

You should fly to Dallas this weekend for the guitar show.
You can check out several Bursts there.
What you gain in knowledge on this very subject will be worth the expense. :ganz

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This is excellent advice. The burst landscape is filled with potholes to the uninitiated. Going to the Dallas and/or Arlington shows would be money very well spent on your burst education.

Happy hunting!

If yo are inLong Island, maybe you should hook up with Perry Margouleff. I know he has some guitars for sale, and can teach you a bunch.

talonmm said:

..... I went to my semi-local Guitar store and evaluated three historics. Without any experience of what a 59 or 60 was supposed to sound like, I chose the brand new Reissue vos 2014 model because many said it was a closer reissue than older Gibson reissues.

The salesman told me all three sounded good, but did not say which sounded more authentic.

For the money I may spend, I hope the '59 does feel better than 2014 version. I believe my two vintage customs from the 50's feel better than the 2014 reissue. I think the comment about a vintage guitar improving with a worn in feeling is a very good analogy.

The best sounding LP I have, is either an '81 custom that plays and sounds amazing with it's original pickups or the new 56 custom - both are remarkable.

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused... It seems you are saying your favorite vintage Les paul is an '81 custom compared to your "new" '56 Custom.... So you are not actually speaking about real 58-60 vintage bursts?? If so, there is a lot I could add but spending $200,000.00 and upward is not always necessary to get "burst tone" or feel ...but if you are "collector" as you say, and collector / investment is a priority, in the mystique of the burst world, figure. condition, color, etc...rule... ...and investment quality 58-60 vintage sunburst Les Pauls in that category can easily run WAY upwards of a quarter million dollars. Since you are now comparing RI '59 guitars to '81 Customs as reference, there is a huge difference in dynamics to be discussed. Are you looking at buying a 59 or 60 vintage sunburst Les Paul or a modern copy? If looking for an original, most "salesmen" working at the RI store level won't have a clue as to which 59 RI' would feel and sound more authentic when speaking of an original vintage sunburst Les Paul......

I'm quite confused by the whole thread.
I don't mean to bust your balls OP, but if I can analogize, it seems like you're saying "I already own a Ferrari and I'd like to buy a Lamborghini but I'm not sure what a fast car feels like, can you help me?"
And also, "I'm not really that into driving cars, I'd just like to have a couple really fast ones in my garage."

Sorry for the confusion, I will try to clear up my poor writing in earlier posts.

I am very much in the market for an original '59 or '60 Burst.

My op stated that having not played one, I was concerned that I wanted to get one that played and sounded good, yet I had no experience with a real burst. I then went on to state that I really enjoy the sound of the 58 bb custom that I just acquired with humbuckers in the guitar.

To me, in my limited experience, the three bb customers I own, a real vintage 56, a real 58, and a 1981 that I bought new in 1981 all feel great to play. While the '81 feels different because of the Norlin frets, I really do like that guitar. I also stated that I am not too sensitive to thick necks or thin necks and can adjust to the different necks found on 58-60 guitars.

I am one of those people who love to collect various things. While I am not Jimmy Page, or Joe B, and will never be in a rock and roll band, I very much love to play guitar and love to collect guitars.

I have amassed a huge sports memorabilia collection with a lot of hard work and now buy and sell very rare vintage sports memorabilia. Unlike the guitar crash that occurred a few years ago and is still hanging over the guitar collecting community, I have done very well selling rare sports memorabilia and because of that have the funds available to buy a 59 burst. I hope this is not meant to sound like I am bragging, I just want to qualify that I realize what these things cost and I do want to buy one.

I have started to research 58-60 Bursts and am learning as much as I can, but books don't really help you understand the feel and perhaps the sound of these amazing instruments.

I would love to go to Dallas but with the show starting in a day or two, I can not make it there on such short notice.

Thanks again for everyone's opinions and guidance I really appreciate the assistance.

asapmaz said:

I'm quite confused by the whole thread.
I don't mean to bust your balls OP, but if I can analogize, it seems like you're saying "I already own a Ferrari and I'd like to buy a Lamborghini but I'm not sure what a fast car feels like, can you help me?"
And also, "I'm not really that into driving cars, I'd just like to have a couple really fast ones in my garage."

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Your analogy is off.

I am into guitars and collect guitars.

Sounds like you are hinting that because I don't play in a band, I am not deserving of owning a burst? I work my you know what off and have worked hard over many years to be able to purchase one of these special instruments. What's wrong with that? I find time to play every day for my own enjoyment.


I just never have played a 58-60 burst and was hoping for a little guidance. If you concluded that I wanted to show off a vintage burst or just keep it around for show you are wrong.

Uncle Lou is another source in NY I believe as well as Drew Berlin. Most bursts are going to be a little unique in sound and the way they play. Take your time, but when the right one comes along, be ready to jump. Best of luck in your search!

T.Allen said:

Uncle Lou is another source in NY I believe as well as Drew Berlin. Most bursts are going to be a little unique in sound and the way they play. Take your time, but when the right one comes along, be ready to jump. Best of luck in your search!

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I have been speaking with Drew - He has been fantastic to work with and I look forward to meeting him soon! Thanks for the tip!

talonmm said:

I have started to research 58-60 Bursts and am learning as much as I can, but books don't really help you understand the feel and perhaps the sound of these amazing instruments.

I would love to go to Dallas but with the show starting in a day or two, I can not make it there on such short notice.

Thanks again for everyone's opinions and guidance I really appreciate the assistance.

Click to expand...

If it's important to you, you will do what is necessary to gain the knowledge.
If you can't come to Dallas this weekend, you should start planning now to go to Arlington in October.

+1 for Arlington, unless you are in a hurry....
You have got to go play some, they are all different in sound and feel.
Just like all other guitars of a given model, no two are really the same.
But you know this already.

talonmm said:

Sorry for the confusion, I will try to clear up my poor writing in earlier posts.

I am very much in the market for an original '59 or '60 Burst.

My op stated that having not played one, I was concerned that I wanted to get one that played and sounded good, yet I had no experience with a real burst. I then went on to state that I really enjoy the sound of the 58 bb custom that I just acquired with humbuckers in the guitar.

To me, in my limited experience, the three bb customers I own, a real vintage 56, a real 58, and a 1981 that I bought new in 1981 all feel great to play. While the '81 feels different because of the Norlin frets, I really do like that guitar. I also stated that I am not too sensitive to thick necks or thin necks and can adjust to the different necks found on 58-60 guitars.

I am one of those people who love to collect various things. While I am not Jimmy Page, or Joe B, and will never be in a rock and roll band, I very much love to play guitar and love to collect guitars.

I have amassed a huge sports memorabilia collection with a lot of hard work and now buy and sell very rare vintage sports memorabilia. Unlike the guitar crash that occurred a few years ago and is still hanging over the guitar collecting community, I have done very well selling rare sports memorabilia and because of that have the funds available to buy a 59 burst. I hope this is not meant to sound like I am bragging, I just want to qualify that I realize what these things cost and I do want to buy one.

I have started to research 58-60 Bursts and am learning as much as I can, but books don't really help you understand the feel and perhaps the sound of these amazing instruments.

I would love to go to Dallas but with the show starting in a day or two, I can not make it there on such short notice.

Thanks again for everyone's opinions and guidance I really appreciate the assistance.

Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks for the explanation. I too am a collector that just happens to have made his living playing guitar. I sold all the guitars shown in my signature line below a few years ago... but... I understand the premise of collecting from decades of collecting everything from cars to guitars to mid century modern furniture, tube gear and so on... If it is your passion, work for it and go get it. I call big time B.S. on anyone who thinks that somehow collectors keep "the good stuff" out of the hands of "deserving" musicians. You'll find gross lack of work ethic behind every such statement. I've never made money as would a doctor etc... not even the money a decent accountant...just a true journeyman/sideman career guitarist (non-singing to boot).. but I've been able to save, invest, trade, sometimes kick and scratch my way into every guitar I've ever dreamed of including a 59 burst just a few years back. So ignore anyone here who tries to even hint that you may "not be deserving" of anything you've worked to attain. This forum for the most part is about grown men from all walks of life who have a dyed-in-the-wool love for fine instruments.

To answer your initial question, I believe a few unspectacular bursts do exist.. Having played well over a couple or three dozen, and owned one recently, I can think of three right off I've played that I wouldn't care to own at any price reflective of a "burst"... BUT.. on the other side of the equation, until someone shows me one unlike the others I've played, reissues are nothing like ANY original burst IMO, they feel for lack of better words, dull, unresponsive, none of the great give and take you expect from a golden era Gibson. I haven't played the newer Nicky models, True Whatever, etc.. and maybe they've done something to give them a better feel. Another opinion of mine is that you can get the same sound and feel, (with eyes closed) from a 50's goldtop routed for PAF's. I don't think there is any difference whatsoever, at least in my ability to discern the two. So to me, this comes down to what do you want the guitar for and how much do you have to spend and be comfortable getting what you desire. There is something about a burst that can't be had with any other guitar, the history, the mystique that is well warranted for those of us, like you, that understand what a historical rock and roll icon and "collectable" is....and why... No, a burst is not necessarily "brighter" than a Custom but there is a difference in a maple and mahogany tops when PAF's come in to play...but wood varies enough and the result from the somewhat microphonic PAF's is that each has its own sonic fingerprint and character of voice. Like TW said, a trip to one of the two major Texas guitar shows would be well worth your time. I've had many a dud in many models of vintage guitars, the percentages of excellency are higher with some models, bursts and all other LP models being MUCH higher than most. I am both a career player as well as one who loves vintages enough guitars to collect them. From a collector standpoint, a burst is most valuable depending on figure, flame, and color... not so much the qualities strictly as a musical instrument. I have no problem as a musician and guitar player understanding this.

j45 said:

I've never made money as would a doctor etc... not even the money a decent accountant...just a true journeyman/sideman career guitarist (non-singing to boot).. but I've been able to save, invest, trade, sometimes kick and scratch my way into every guitar I've ever dreamed of including a 59 burst just a few years back.

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Thank you for a great answer and helping me understand better what is out there, and thanks to everyone that helped!

You may not have made a fortune, but having been a professional guitarist for a long time is something a lot of us "business professionals" admire and wish we were talented enough to do. I admire who you are and what you have done.

And I agree about the reissues! I picked the best of the lot at Music Zoo, yet when I play it, it feels like a really nice guitar, but not a special guitar that has a "wow" factor.

I do feel the "wow" emotion with the vintage stuff, perhaps it's in my head but I doubt it.

I will follow the advise of the members here, try to make the Arlington show and try to see if any are available to play in NY City.

thanks again!