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Anatomy of a Firebird Pickup

DHBucker

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Jul 18, 2007
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"The coils themselves are wound with the typical, purplish/maroon Formvar wire as found on period or earlier humbuckers and P-90s."

Isn't Formvar (polyvinyl formal) a different coating for the wire than plain enamel? It is my understanding that the maroon/reddish wire Gibson used in the 50's and early 60's was coated with plain enamel. Fender however used formvar wire on their PU's and the wire was orange. Aren't poly and formvar the same thing? I think poly is not polyurethane but polyvinyl formal.
 

j45

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Jun 14, 2002
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"The coils themselves are wound with the typical, purplish/maroon Formvar wire as found on period or earlier humbuckers and P-90s."

Isn't Formvar (polyvinyl formal) a different coating for the wire than plain enamel? It is my understanding that the maroon/reddish wire Gibson used in the 50's and early 60's was coated with plain enamel. Fender however used formvar wire on their PU's and the wire was orange. Aren't poly and formvar the same thing? I think poly is not polyurethane but polyvinyl formal.

I'm talking way over my head but I thought Fender used plain enamel insulated wire on Tele's and most other guitars and the Formvar insulated was used for Strats. I've also seen the word "Formvar" used when paired with the word "enamel" is in "Formvar enamel" and also worded as "polyvinyl formal enamel". I think polyurethane and polyester are used to insulate wires as well. Again I'm talking over my head and just parroting things I've seen and heard. It is also my understanding that Formvar, plain enamel, and polyyrethane are three different types of insulation used on vintage pickups... that in '64/'65 both fender and gibson changed to the "poly" (polyurethane) insulated wire or the "orange" wire wound pickups. The wire on the early Strat pickups is not nearly as orange as late 60's gibson pickups. I'm sure someone will come along and set this straight or correct me. But yes, it seems from the color the Firebird pickup would be plain enamel, not Formvar enamel.
 

Jason Lollar

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Jul 26, 2001
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I dont know what the rules are about answering a direct question like that- probably not cool but making a pickup and calling it a firebird if it wasnt 90% firebird internally it shouldnt be called a firebird IMO.
Formvar is most often copper colored and it was used on strats alot in the 50's,Plain enamel is a variety of brownish chestnut black usualy it varies and it was used on all teles and all gibson pickups for a time and poly is often reddish or copper colored but it can be any color- blue, green, yellow whatever its just dye that they add. Gibson and fender eventually went to poly for some time. Formvar, plain enamel and poly are all different insulations.
I should mention the current common firebird reissues have pickups that only barely resemble the originals- the reissues use powerful ceramic magnets and are wound at 24K if I recall correctly .
I think the neck is 14K and the bridge 22 or 24K- we all know that right?
 
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garywright

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Aug 17, 2002
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I dont know what the rules are about answering a direct question like that- probably not cool but making a pickup and calling it a firebird if it wasnt 90% firebird internally it shouldnt be called a firebird IMO.

Jason ..was this directed to my question...there's much discussion by Jwalker and his paf throbak builds ..so I doubt there's a hidden "rule" you should be cautious about ..anyway, I think in a round about way you did answer my q :)
 

hogy

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Nov 4, 2005
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Well, guess what: there are double white Firebird pickups.

385749870.jpg


This pickup only needed its lead replaced and an associated short fixed, so I didn't take it apart any further to see what coil wire was used, or find out other details. These things are held together by glue and pressure, best not to disturb things any more than absolutely necessary.

Even though, obvious differences to the first FB pickup I posted pictures of are noticeable. Different wood shim, bobbin color, lead color from the coils (red/black instead of white/black), no pole piece holes in the base plate.

Anybody else have noticed different variations of old Firebird pickups?


b
 

andreja marovic

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Jun 1, 2004
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05022010056.jpg

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Here some 65 FBlll pick ups.
I didn't want to open them, one of them looks like someone was curious and had to look inside.I don't think it's a good idea to usolder the covers unless you have a problem.Both pu's sound good.
You can see the wooden shims in the cover holes
.:dude:
 

Zhangliqun

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Jul 16, 2001
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As Jason says, formvar, PE, and poly are 3 different insulations. They look very different too. Poly looks almost like bare copper wire. PE is very dark brown, as in the photos from the original poster. Formvar (usually double-build -- PE and poly are typically single) is rather bright and orange looking, at least my spool of it sure is.

I'm not sure what the metal plates are for, maybe to ground the magnets to the baseplate?
 

TM1

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Jun 27, 2003
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As Jason says, formvar, PE, and poly are 3 different insulations. They look very different too. Poly looks almost like bare copper wire. PE is very dark brown, as in the photos from the original poster. Formvar (usually double-build -- PE and poly are typically single) is rather bright and orange looking, at least my spool of it sure is.

I'm not sure what the metal plates are for, maybe to ground the magnets to the baseplate?

the metal plate acts in pretty much the same way as the plate on the bottom of a Tele pickup. It directs the magnetic field up. BTW, the bobbin's on these have almost always been Nylon. I have a number of Firebird pickups and have had a few apart. Very different from a regular humbucking and a mini-hum like on a LP Deluxe.
 

cryptozoo

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I'm confused -- are you saying in 1963 and earlier FORMVAR wire was used on humbuckers and P90s by Gibson?
 

Jason Lollar

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I have seen white, black and milky white clear bobbins. The metal plate makes the magnets stronger on the string side like don says and it boosts the output and bass noticeably on this design. if you measured before and after the metal plate with an inductance meter you would see it jump up a point after you add the steel plate- a good thing on the bridge pickup.
 

Zhangliqun

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Jul 16, 2001
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That's curious. I've made traditional baseplate Tele pu's and I've made some no-baseplate models, and the no-platers are very noticeable louder and brighter, which suggests to me that the plate pulls some of the field away from the strings rather than directing it up.

And yes, all other factors (wind, turns, magnets) were the same.
 

j45

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Jun 14, 2002
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I'm confused -- are you saying in 1963 and earlier FORMVAR wire was used on humbuckers and P90s by Gibson?

That's what was said in the first post but I'm sure it's a mental lapse from too many years working with vintage gear. Pre-CBS Fenders did but pre-64 Gibson pickups would be enamel insulated. The OP is extremely well versed in pickup minutia and well aware of actual composition.
 

efk

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Jan 8, 2009
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The metal plate on the bottom definitely is there to couple the magnetic fields, but that little strip on the top: I'll bet that serves some type of calculated inductance purpose. Is that on the bass side or the treble side? If on the treble side, might be there to tone down some brightness. Or maybe mute the B string a bit? Just thinking out loud.
 

Jason Lollar

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measure at the poles with a gauss meter next time you put a steel plate under a pickup and youll see what it does- a steel plate over the top of the pickup usually kills signal.
you know brighter can sound louder even though it has reduced output!
 

58dutchie

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Aug 31, 2006
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602
Hi there,

Do you think this is an original '65 Firebird (neck) pickup? (I think it is...) These pickups sit in my '99 Firebird VII, so I have three of them (all look identical). The neck one reads 6.2 (normal) and the bridge pickup reads a very unusual high 8.4 ! The bridge really bites!

DSC_0784-2.jpg


DSC_0785-1.jpg
 

Litcrit

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May 9, 2002
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5,990
Hi there,

Do you think this is an original '65 Firebird (neck) pickup? (I think it is...) These pickups sit in my '99 Firebird VII, so I have three of them (all look identical). The neck one reads 6.2 (normal) and the bridge pickup reads a very unusual high 8.4 ! The bridge really bites!

DSC_0784-2.jpg


DSC_0785-1.jpg

Well, they certainly have a vintage baseplate, and you can see the shims through the holes, so on what's visible, you're "2 for 2". The readouts are closer to vintage spec than modern spec, especially the neck pup. The 8.4 reading on the bridge pup is higher than I've ever heard of for a vintage Firebird, not saying impossible but a clear outlier. Maybe a rewind or "hybrid" type of pickup. You can't really know unless you're willing to open them up.
Maybe someone should post detailed pics of modern-spec Firebird pickups just for comparison sake.
 
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