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Tailpiece Bushing Grounding

Bainzy

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Aug 9, 2005
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219
On late 50's bursts, was the tailpiece ground soldered to the bushing, or simply wrapped around it? From the rear cavities I've seen, it appears to be in a very small channel that was routed before the top was attached - is this right? Any pics or info would be appreciated.
 

RickN

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Feb 12, 2002
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See what you think of this:

On guitars which had tail piece studs, the body wasn't routed to make room for the string ground. There was a small hole drilled between the high-E tail piece stud hole and the control cavity AFTER the top was glued on and the holes and cavities drilled and routed. The wire was simply inserted through the hole and the tail piece bushing was pressed in. The friction fit held it in place. The wire wasn't soldered to nor wrapped around the bushing. It was simply in contact with the bushing, which was all that was needed.

On dedicated Bigsby guitars which had no factory tail piece bushings it was done differently. There was a small hole drilled through the back of the bridge pickup cavity into the hole for the high-E bridge post. Again, the wire was inserted and the bridge post screwed down into the hole, making contact with the wire. The other end of the string ground wire was wrapped around the shielding braid of the bridge pickup and that WAS soldered.

The routed channel prior to the top being glued on was on the early-'50s goldtops.

That's what I've seen in my travels. If there are any other factory versions of string grounds from that era, I'd like to learn about them too.
 

J.D.

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May 24, 2006
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10,030
That is absolutely correct as far as I know.
 

BARON BURST

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Feb 1, 2006
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I think Bainzy is asking as he's building a burst you know.
Bainzy is building his from korina.
 

Bainzy

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Aug 9, 2005
Messages
219
Yeah, and I wanted to ask as I'm just about to break out the hot hide glue and join the top to the body. Thanks for the information mofinco, that's pretty much what I suspected. I've seen the route in early goldtops for the wire, that appears to have been pretty large (1/2" wide maybe?) and I can imagine that would influence the sound somewhat. The kind of routing I thought Gibson might have done later on would be pretty much have just been a few mm wide at the most, but if its a hole drilled after then that's what I'll go for.

I've been taking pics at each stage, so I've got some more to add in the Guitar Shop thread such as gluing up with HHG, copying measurements onto the planed body blank from a plan such as Stew Mac's, using a drum sander in a drill press to shape the body outline, and routing cavities etc. I'll wait until the top is on, take some photos of that and then add them later this week.
 

DoubleBoogie

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Jun 6, 2004
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4,800
This begs the following question...Would you get a better ground if the ground wire was soldered in some fashion to the bushing prior to inserting it into the top? Seems to me that it might make the guitar a tad more quiet. If cold solder joints make your guitar noisy, I would think that a simple press fit against a bushing would have about the same effect.
 

marT

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Jul 18, 2006
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if the press fit is snug then there wouldn't be any problem. The problem with cold solder joints is sometimes the wire might be sort of swimming in solder and not actually make contact.
 
B

bharat.k

Guest
See what you think of this:

On guitars which had tail piece studs, the body wasn't routed to make room for the string ground. There was a small hole drilled between the high-E tail piece stud hole and the control cavity AFTER the top was glued on and the holes and cavities drilled and routed. The wire was simply inserted through the hole and the tail piece bushing was pressed in. The friction fit held it in place. The wire wasn't soldered to nor wrapped around the bushing. It was simply in contact with the bushing, which was all that was needed.

On dedicated Bigsby guitars which had no factory tail piece bushings it was done differently. There was a small hole drilled through the back of the bridge pickup cavity into the hole for the high-E bridge post. Again, the wire was inserted and the bridge post screwed down into the hole, making contact with the wire. The other end of the string ground wire was wrapped around the shielding braid of the bridge pickup and that WAS soldered.

The routed channel prior to the top being glued on was on the early-'50s goldtops.

That's what I've seen in my travels. If there are any other factory versions of string grounds from that era, I'd like to learn about them too.

I've been wondering about Bigsby guitars for a while since I've seen so many variations of the ground wire. I've also seen a small long hole drilled into the control cavity from near the endpin but always wondered if it was factory. What do you think?
 

plaintop60

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Nov 20, 2006
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2,210
This begs the following question...Would you get a better ground if the ground wire was soldered in some fashion to the bushing prior to inserting it into the top? Seems to me that it might make the guitar a tad more quiet. If cold solder joints make your guitar noisy, I would think that a simple press fit against a bushing would have about the same effect.

It's a good mechanical connection, much better than a high quality switch. The reason cold solder joints can produce noise is because there's a layer of oxidation in a cold solder joint that can cause the joint to act like a resistor or even a diode in some cases.
 

RickN

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Feb 12, 2002
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7,143
This begs the following question...Would you get a better ground if the ground wire was soldered in some fashion to the bushing prior to inserting it into the top? Seems to me that it might make the guitar a tad more quiet. If cold solder joints make your guitar noisy, I would think that a simple press fit against a bushing would have about the same effect.

Mmm... under that thinking, that would make practically every stop-tail Gibson (and other manufacturer that does is the same way) defective and noisy, right? If you don't think simple physical contact is enough to make good working electrical contact, I have some fun exercises you try at home with your favorite wall outlet... :hmm :hee Seriously, though... don't invent problems where there aren't any.
 

RickN

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Feb 12, 2002
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if the press fit is snug then there wouldn't be any problem. The problem with cold solder joints is sometimes the wire might be sort of swimming in solder and not actually make contact.
Not exactly... I can show you some cold solder joints that are paper-thin without the wire 'swimming' in solder, and I've also seen some perfectly good solder joints that aren't what anyone would consider cold joints that simply have 5 times more solder than needed... and they make great connection. In fact, I was just working on another forum member's guitar on this past Sunday which had the biggest factory solder blob I've seen to date - that wire (a pickup lead) WAS swimming in solder... but it wasn't a 'cold' joint. It made great electrical contact. 'plaintop60's' explanation is closest to explaining the problem.

But this isn't the Tech section of the forum, right? BACK TO '50s LES PAULS! :salude
 

J.D.

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May 24, 2006
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10,030
I've been wondering about Bigsby guitars for a while since I've seen so many variations of the ground wire. I've also seen a small long hole drilled into the control cavity from near the endpin but always wondered if it was factory. What do you think?

I've asked this question to knowledgeable people, and the consensus is this is not how they did them on the sunburst Les Pauls. The ground goes to the ABR-1 high E post. It is, however, how the ES-335s and SGs were done. Regardless if correct or not, a good ground to anything touching the strings will accomplish the same result, that is to make a ground and reduce hum.
 

DoubleBoogie

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Jun 6, 2004
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It's a good mechanical connection, much better than a high quality switch. The reason cold solder joints can produce noise is because there's a layer of oxidation in a cold solder joint that can cause the joint to act like a resistor or even a diode in some cases.

Thanks. That makes sense to me, but I still wonder about some humbucker Gibson guitars that I have played that have been noisier than others. After making sure the wiring and grounding was all proper, they were still a little noisier than they should be. All of these became more quiet when my hand rested on the stop tailpiece. I now am wondering if some of these are assembled such that the "mechanical connection" is not quite as good as others. Perhaps this could be due to imperfections in the wood that doesn't allow the bushing to make good enough contact? Have you ever seen this before?
 

DoubleBoogie

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Mmm... under that thinking, that would make practically every stop-tail Gibson (and other manufacturer that does is the same way) defective and noisy, right? If you don't think simple physical contact is enough to make good working electrical contact, I have some fun exercises you try at home with your favorite wall outlet... :hmm :hee Seriously, though... don't invent problems where there aren't any.

See my response to plaintop60. From my experience, I have experienced different variations in how quiet some Les Pauls have been. Some have had more of a touch of what I would consider 60 cycle hum but in those guitars, I was never able to find any problems with the wiring or soldering. Just wondering if that mechanical connection might not be as solid as needed due to wood shavings or an imperfection in the wood at the bottom of the bushing hole that keeps the bushing from making a good snug fit. Not trying to invent a problem, but I can certainly see where this could present problems in some cases and would tend to explain what I have experienced in the past. I would also think that there is a substantial difference between being able to transmit electricity across a connection and establishing a ground connection well enough to eliminate noise.
 

pilotlight

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Oct 8, 2003
Messages
513
DB, did you try several guitars to make sure it wasn't a noisy electrical source, or that flourescent lamps were not being used in the room, computers on,,etc...

Noisy power sources exascerbate the feared 60 cycle hum...
 

plaintop60

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Thanks. That makes sense to me, but I still wonder about some humbucker Gibson guitars that I have played that have been noisier than others. After making sure the wiring and grounding was all proper, they were still a little noisier than they should be. All of these became more quiet when my hand rested on the stop tailpiece. I now am wondering if some of these are assembled such that the "mechanical connection" is not quite as good as others. Perhaps this could be due to imperfections in the wood that doesn't allow the bushing to make good enough contact? Have you ever seen this before?

I do actually recall a bad ground connection on one ES 335 that was caused by corrosion of the wire where it contacts the tailpiece insert. I have also seen the wired severed by an insert that was installed with the beveled edge facing out instead of in. These are very rare occurances though. It's certainly possible that some degree of oxidation may be causing a high resistance connection on any guitar. It should be fairly easy to check with an ohmeter by measure the DC resistance between the tailpiece and the ground wire inside the control cavity. The reading should be less than one ohm. Any reading higher than this is suspect. If you do find a high reading, you can partially pull the stud out and press it back in. Then recheck the resistance reading. If the resistance is caused by corrosion or a poor mechanical connection, moving the insert should give you a change in reading.....either you will now have an infinite resistance reading or closer to zero ohms than your first reading. Lets say your first reading was 15,000 ohms, due to corrosion. Sliding the insert out and back in should clean off some of the corrosion and result in a lower reading. If this is the case the insert should be pulled and inspected, cleaned and a new buss wire should be inserted into the hole drilled into the side of the stud hole and the insert pressed back in.
 

Tom Wittrock

Les Paul Forum Co-Owner
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Aug 2, 2001
Messages
42,567
There are some stop tail [no Bigsby] Bursts with the ground wire from the bridge pup cavity to the t-o-m post.



And Bainzy cannot [nor can anyone else] "make a Burst".
Maybe he can make a replica, or something similar.
If so, I hope he doesn't put "Gibson" on the headstock.
 

DoubleBoogie

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I do actually recall a bad ground connection on one ES 335 that was caused by corrosion of the wire where it contacts the tailpiece insert. I have also seen the wired severed by an insert that was installed with the beveled edge facing out instead of in. These are very rare occurances though. It's certainly possible that some degree of oxidation may be causing a high resistance connection on any guitar. It should be fairly easy to check with an ohmeter by measure the DC resistance between the tailpiece and the ground wire inside the control cavity. The reading should be less than one ohm. Any reading higher than this is suspect. If you do find a high reading, you can partially pull the stud out and press it back in. Then recheck the resistance reading. If the resistance is caused by corrosion or a poor mechanical connection, moving the insert should give you a change in reading.....either you will now have an infinite resistance reading or closer to zero ohms than your first reading. Lets say your first reading was 15,000 ohms, due to corrosion. Sliding the insert out and back in should clean off some of the corrosion and result in a lower reading. If this is the case the insert should be pulled and inspected, cleaned and a new buss wire should be inserted into the hole drilled into the side of the stud hole and the insert pressed back in.

Thanks! That is an excellent piece of advice. The next time I run into something like this, I'll put a meter on it and see if that is the culprit.
 
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